I inquired about a 73 BB, 4-speed F/S today... and I asked the owner to enlighten me about the condition of the car. I had my trusty standard list of questions at the ready....but, before I could ask another question....this guy starts spouting off about this is not the original color to the car, this does not work, that does not work, oh, and its not the original drivetrain. Trying not to be rude and not interupt his description...he drops this bomb on me. He states it is a date code correct 454 built in late 72, and all I need to do is deck the block and re-stamp it with the Vin# & suffix and no one would be the wiser....(insert gasp and jaw drop here)...he continued to say "Everyone in his area does it all the time and he has many freinds who deal with Corvette's only and they do it all the time".

I swear this is true!!!!!!!!!! He went on and on and I thanked him for his time and ended the call.

I have to admit when it comes to the 73, I am pretty well versed in what to look for in the car that I may have an interest in...but this block re-stamping has me really worried about being scamed. In all the car's I have owned, bought, sold, refinished, restored, etc....I have only had one car that had a re-stamped block. I didn't realize it until I had already taken delivery on it and promtly sold it. It should be noted here, that car was not a Corvette...but came from the same area of the same state the one in question is from. Surpise! Before you ask... I am hesitant to name the state...but for the sake of other's in search of a car, it is FL. This is not the only dicey situation I have had with a FL car / seller....even before I made the call and saw its location, I said Hmmmmmmm?

Now, don't beat me up if you are from there...thats not what this post is all about.

My point or moreover question here is, has it become such a standard / common place practice to do this? And...if other's here are seeing this as a more prevelant problem in the industry...how can one discern or make the distinction of a true factory stamping as opposed to a re-stamp. I know some are obvious, but I suspect some are very good and these are the ones I want to be able to walk away from. I am familiar with the broach marks and other, its the tell all, be sure, without a doubt ID method I seek. Any thought's, opinon's, insight,..... would be appreciated

 

I was having some work done on mine- my Vette is a 1972 but has a 1970 motor- the guy said he'd restamp- no problem- I got the car out of there pronto- I'm not willing to scam anyone about what I have- he even showed me the stamp he uses- probably the same type they used at the factory-

 

I can only imagine how many Vettes are out there with re-stamped blocks . A scary thought for someone considering purchasing a Vette described as having an original block!!! and then handing over $$$ not knowing that they have been scammed.

 

My thoughts are..... if you have a not so valuable car and the engine appears original, then it probably is. (My thought obviously contradicted by your story about the 73 bigblock)
If it is a very valuable car, for example a freshly restored 435 hp 1967 model that looks like a new car, assume it is a restamped restoration block unless there is some real strong documentation/proof to the contrary.

People cry "fraud! fraud!" whenever they hear of a replacement engine stamped to appear original (ie, stamped with all the numbers that were on the original pad, indicating date, where-manufactured, certain options, and the last numbers of the vin), but it is not clear to me at all that this is fraud. The car's vin is on the tag by the windshield. Stamping the vin derivative on the frame (edit -meant to write "engine pad" not frame) is no more fraud than writing the vin# in chalk on the frame. It is simply restoring the car to as-new condition.

 

The simple fact is that restamping is pretty common... everywhere, not just FL. There are a couple sources that advertise in a couple publications I wont name, that simply state they will restamp as correct anything you want. If you want tons of discussion, go to the C1/C2 side of the forum and search ... it has been discussed to death.

Ive found it interesting to continue to look at pads and broach marks and try to get better at telling correct from restamp, but the fact is its a very inexact "science" and many crappy looking pads are actually original!

There are also many cars that have reached quite a bit of judging success with admitted restamped pads.

Its not fair to automatically assume high dollar cars are restamped, but the fact is you just dont really know, even if there is documentation.

 

There was a case a couple of years back about a restamped block. Car had a correct dated block with the production numbers restamped on the stamp pad. The seller advertised it as "numbers matching".

When the buyer found out it was a restamp he took the seller to court. The seller won. The engine was not advertised as original, only as matching numbers. You know what, the numbers did match. No claim was ever made that it was the original engine.

To me, numbers matching means nothing. Original engine means everything.

tom...

 

Point well taken....

 

For a legal opinion and to read about one court case - see this months Kieth Martins Sports Car Magazine (SCM) on a 69 Z-28 with a restamped engine.


bigredbrad

 

My numbers don't match and I could care less.

What I do like is that I have a paper trail to back up the fact that my non original engine has less than 10,000 actual miles, and the car has less than 38,000 miles.

Lot's of deception these days.....

 

about every 4 months.....this should be good!

 

Unfortunately restamping a block is not that uncommon a practice. In my opinion it is fraud unless the buyer discloses it at the time of the sale.

Many people have no interest in having a matching numbers car and that is fine. For those that want a car with the original drive train let the buyer beware. For small block low HP cars it would not usually pay to have the block restamped since it would not have a significant impact on the value of the car. For high dollar cars with rare engines it would be in the best interests of the buyer to have someone who is well versed in reading broach marks and vin derivatives inspect the car before purchase. Money corrupts and when dealing with high dollar items there is no honor among thieves. The dollar rules.

It is no different than selling a QZ to someone and calling it a diamond and asking diamond prices for it. The intent is to fool the buyer and seperate them for their money. It is like armed robbery without the gun. It should be prosecuted in the same manner and treated as a criminal matter.

This has been going on for many years all over the country and many sellers today have no idea that their car was restamped years ago and don't know they are selling a fake. That is why it is the buyers obligation to check it out or get burned.

 

Should evolve quite rapidly into that "matching numbers" carburetor thread...........

 

....the one thing that bothers me most is what I think about this issue. Realistically, if it isn't the original motor and it is re-stamped to "appear" to be the original motor, isn't this FRAUD??? I mean, if it ain't the original Flint/St. Louis stamping it isn't the original one.

....yeah, yeah I know-to restore is to put something back to "original".

...but taking say a correct dated, block casting Impala 427 that once had an Impala suffix & VIN #, decking it(shaving off those original numers)and "re-stamping" it with a Corvette suffix & VIN kind of fraudulent in itself???

Not
Correctly
Re-stamped
Stingray

...I put that '73-'85 GM Direct Replacement 350 260hp motor in my '75 five years ago. Anybody got an extra stamping kit laying around?

 

I find it difficult not to laugh when I hear Bubba saying, 'ya I can restamp it, no problem'. My ears hear: 'hold ma beer 'n watch this'

Any fool can buy a set of stamps at Harbour Freight, very few can make a pad look original. There's probably less to worry about than you might think. The key is doing research and thinking with your upper brain, not the lower.

 

Back in the late 60's if you raced a high performance car SS396 or 427 cars, and you blow the engine up and took it back to the dealer ship they would put a new motor or what ever engine they could get their hands on to replace it. No one really cared if it was number matching or not, just as long as it did not cost you anything. You drove the car to work on dates and on weekends you raced the car. If you start checking you will find that almost every corvette is a 427, 435 hp, like its the only thing that Chevy made for the corvette. If you like the car and its what you want buy it. They are old cars and you bought it drive, not to put in the garage and save it for 40 years to make money.

 

fraud is fraud ......if the purpose is to decieve someone or for the purposes of increasing the value its fraud pure and simple.....no guess work no equivocation.... people go to jail all the time for fraud....

 

and the next sale and the next sale etc etc etc.....its the insidious nature of fraud that makes it so shameful and people should go to jail for it

 

The other popular thing is the "original" tank stickers and window stickers carefully weathered to look original. The nice thing about this is that with the right tank sticker you can legitimize any options you want.

 

There's a good chance I might ruffle some feathers with my opinion on the matter and if I do, so be it... First though let me make it clear that I personally would never restamp a block or have a block restamped (just to be clear).

That being said... Depending on the situation I don't really have a problem with someone restamping a block, provided the block that is being put in the car is the same type that originally came in the car. In my opinion restamping a 427 and putting it in a car that came with the base 350 and passing it as original is fraud, however if you have a car that really did come with a 427 and you had to replace the block for some reason, and you obtained a block with with an appropriate casting date and restamped it to match your car, your really doing nothing more than restoring it to it's original and proper condition.

When it comes down to it is there really a difference between block A that was originally installed in the and block B that was potentially cast on the same day that could have ended up in the car?

Of course, there's the tough part... telling the difference between the car that originally had a 427 and was restored with a correct replacement block or a car that originally had a 350 and is now being passed off as a factory 427.

 

Since this seller was so blatantly open about this process and adding in the fact, that in his little corner of the world (according to him) this is a common practice. I was hoping for some insight as to the little tell tale sign's to be on the look out for.

I did not mean to start yet another "Matching Numbers vs Re-Stamp Controversy" thread. What I was looking for were some concrete way(s) to identify a re-stamp or just some helpful hints that may be over looked by a novice buyer, but would be suspect / obvious, to a seasoned buyer. I am simply just trying to be smarter and or better informed, about any future purchase.


As far as the fraud issue goes...If you disclose the FACTS about the car to the buyer...that's one thing.
But, to openly engage a prospective buyer into having the block decked and re-stamped to match the car for the purpose of resale...is yet another.

If you advertise any type of vehicle, stating original / numbers matching with a re-stamped block, or for that matter if you state its an all original sheet metal car with replacement fenders, hood, etc....and do not disclose the true FACTS to the buyer...that is FRAUD!

I do not wish to engage in the semantics of Original vs Numbers Matching...but, that was a point well made by Tom-73...I guess I will have to add that query to my list when questioning to the void.

JMO....