Curious NCRS question
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Hi B76,
then write the National Judging Chairman for a copy of the judging sheets that are used for Flight Judging for those cars. Those sheets are Operations, Exterior, Interior, Mechanical, and Chassis. I think you'll be surprised how many things are judged, and how easy it is to have a award winning car.
then write the National Judging Chairman for a copy of the judging sheets that are used for Flight Judging for those cars. Those sheets are Operations, Exterior, Interior, Mechanical, and Chassis. I think you'll be surprised how many things are judged, and how easy it is to have a award winning car.
http://www.ncrs.org/membership/scoresheets.html
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
I know of a Corvette that took a "Top Flight" award last year. The car was a frame-off restoration and was taken to a regional meet 6 months before tha National convention for pre-judging.
Before going to the regional meet, many parts were substituted based on observations of a local NCRS judge, the shock asorbers were changed and tires were changed for "correct" style tires. When judged the tires and shocks were deemed to be incorrect (the guy who said the changes should be done is also a NCRS judge but, not judging the Vette at the regional meet.) The paint was going to be deducted for not being lacquer until the body guy ran to his truck, got a rag with polish and brought some color off on his rag (the judges remark after this, I still think it is too shiny
)
The "incorrect" parts were changed in time for the National Convention and the car made it's Top Flight award. Thousands of dollars were spent on items such as replacing new Moog brand tie rod ends for used originals, and replacment of many items that made this car drive like new. I would hesitate to guess that this Vette didn't "drive like new" when it was finished but it meet the show standards for the NCRS.
I have attended a few NCRS events, I am SHOCKED at the re-writing of history I see there, if you look at aluminum parts such as Alternators, Fuel Injection units, aluminum hi-rise intakes, they have a funny finish on them not like the raw alauminum that I observed on original cars back in the 1970's whan they were still pretty new.
There are many "Experts" in the NCRS, I knowof one guy who is supposed to be "the go to guy" for starter/alternator rebuilds, his rebuilt starters are not what I would accept as being reliable but, they are numbers correct and many people use his services, I WOULD NOT!
I do think there should be a benchmark for original Corvettes but, I also think there should be room in the world for cars with decent paint jobs and reliable drivetrains to attend without some idiot telling the owner his car is "not correct" wile that same IDIOT usually dosen't own a running Corvette (his is usually "under restoration" at home in pieces.)
My wife's 70 LT-1 roadster was never NCRS material, it led a hard life at the drag strip before I bought it. It would not score well at a NCRS event but, it takes home the "bacon" at local shows. When I have had a crappy day at work I can come home and fire that LT-1 up, take a short drive and forget about everything else. People LOVE the Vette, it constantly gets remarks/thumbs-up whenever it is driven. I would rather own my LT-1 than a "top flight" car. To each his own but, don't bother to tell me about wrong parts/finishes on my Vette, I built it to do what I want it to do and it does "IT" for me.
Before going to the regional meet, many parts were substituted based on observations of a local NCRS judge, the shock asorbers were changed and tires were changed for "correct" style tires. When judged the tires and shocks were deemed to be incorrect (the guy who said the changes should be done is also a NCRS judge but, not judging the Vette at the regional meet.) The paint was going to be deducted for not being lacquer until the body guy ran to his truck, got a rag with polish and brought some color off on his rag (the judges remark after this, I still think it is too shiny
) The "incorrect" parts were changed in time for the National Convention and the car made it's Top Flight award. Thousands of dollars were spent on items such as replacing new Moog brand tie rod ends for used originals, and replacment of many items that made this car drive like new. I would hesitate to guess that this Vette didn't "drive like new" when it was finished but it meet the show standards for the NCRS.
I have attended a few NCRS events, I am SHOCKED at the re-writing of history I see there, if you look at aluminum parts such as Alternators, Fuel Injection units, aluminum hi-rise intakes, they have a funny finish on them not like the raw alauminum that I observed on original cars back in the 1970's whan they were still pretty new.
There are many "Experts" in the NCRS, I knowof one guy who is supposed to be "the go to guy" for starter/alternator rebuilds, his rebuilt starters are not what I would accept as being reliable but, they are numbers correct and many people use his services, I WOULD NOT!
I do think there should be a benchmark for original Corvettes but, I also think there should be room in the world for cars with decent paint jobs and reliable drivetrains to attend without some idiot telling the owner his car is "not correct" wile that same IDIOT usually dosen't own a running Corvette (his is usually "under restoration" at home in pieces.)
My wife's 70 LT-1 roadster was never NCRS material, it led a hard life at the drag strip before I bought it. It would not score well at a NCRS event but, it takes home the "bacon" at local shows. When I have had a crappy day at work I can come home and fire that LT-1 up, take a short drive and forget about everything else. People LOVE the Vette, it constantly gets remarks/thumbs-up whenever it is driven. I would rather own my LT-1 than a "top flight" car. To each his own but, don't bother to tell me about wrong parts/finishes on my Vette, I built it to do what I want it to do and it does "IT" for me.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,813
Likes: 1
From: JOPPA MD
I know of a Corvette that took a "Top Flight" award last year. The car was a frame-off restoration and was taken to a regional meet 6 months before tha National convention for pre-judging.
Before going to the regional meet, many parts were substituted based on observations of a local NCRS judge, the shock asorbers were changed and tires were changed for "correct" style tires. When judged the tires and shocks were deemed to be incorrect (the guy who said the changes should be done is also a NCRS judge but, not judging the Vette at the regional meet.) The paint was going to be deducted for not being lacquer until the body guy ran to his truck, got a rag with polish and brought some color off on his rag (the judges remark after this, I still think it is too shiny)
The "incorrect" parts were changed in time for the National Convention and the car made it's Top Flight award. Thousands of dollars were spent on items such as replacing new Moog brand tie rod ends for used originals, and replacment of many items that made this car drive like new. I would hesitate to guess that this Vette didn't "drive like new" when it was finished but it meet the show standards for the NCRS.
I have attended a few NCRS events, I am SHOCKED at the re-writing of history I see there, if you look at aluminum parts such as Alternators, Fuel Injection units, aluminum hi-rise intakes, they have a funny finish on them not like the raw alauminum that I observed on original cars back in the 1970's whan they were still pretty new.
There are many "Experts" in the NCRS, I knowof one guy who is supposed to be "the go to guy" for starter/alternator rebuilds, his rebuilt starters are not what I would accept as being reliable but, they are numbers correct and many people use his services, I WOULD NOT!
I do think there should be a benchmark for original Corvettes but, I also think there should be room in the world for cars with decent paint jobs and reliable drivetrains to attend without some idiot telling the owner his car is "not correct" wile that same IDIOT usually dosen't own a running Corvette (his is usually "under restoration" at home in pieces.)
My wife's 70 LT-1 roadster was never NCRS material, it led a hard life at the drag strip before I bought it. It would not score well at a NCRS event but, it takes home the "bacon" at local shows. When I have had a crappy day at work I can come home and fire that LT-1 up, take a short drive and forget about everything else. People LOVE the Vette, it constantly gets remarks/thumbs-up whenever it is driven. I would rather own my LT-1 than a "top flight" car. To each his own but, don't bother to tell me about wrong parts/finishes on my Vette, I built it to do what I want it to do and it does "IT" for me.
Before going to the regional meet, many parts were substituted based on observations of a local NCRS judge, the shock asorbers were changed and tires were changed for "correct" style tires. When judged the tires and shocks were deemed to be incorrect (the guy who said the changes should be done is also a NCRS judge but, not judging the Vette at the regional meet.) The paint was going to be deducted for not being lacquer until the body guy ran to his truck, got a rag with polish and brought some color off on his rag (the judges remark after this, I still think it is too shiny
) The "incorrect" parts were changed in time for the National Convention and the car made it's Top Flight award. Thousands of dollars were spent on items such as replacing new Moog brand tie rod ends for used originals, and replacment of many items that made this car drive like new. I would hesitate to guess that this Vette didn't "drive like new" when it was finished but it meet the show standards for the NCRS.
I have attended a few NCRS events, I am SHOCKED at the re-writing of history I see there, if you look at aluminum parts such as Alternators, Fuel Injection units, aluminum hi-rise intakes, they have a funny finish on them not like the raw alauminum that I observed on original cars back in the 1970's whan they were still pretty new.
There are many "Experts" in the NCRS, I knowof one guy who is supposed to be "the go to guy" for starter/alternator rebuilds, his rebuilt starters are not what I would accept as being reliable but, they are numbers correct and many people use his services, I WOULD NOT!
I do think there should be a benchmark for original Corvettes but, I also think there should be room in the world for cars with decent paint jobs and reliable drivetrains to attend without some idiot telling the owner his car is "not correct" wile that same IDIOT usually dosen't own a running Corvette (his is usually "under restoration" at home in pieces.)
My wife's 70 LT-1 roadster was never NCRS material, it led a hard life at the drag strip before I bought it. It would not score well at a NCRS event but, it takes home the "bacon" at local shows. When I have had a crappy day at work I can come home and fire that LT-1 up, take a short drive and forget about everything else. People LOVE the Vette, it constantly gets remarks/thumbs-up whenever it is driven. I would rather own my LT-1 than a "top flight" car. To each his own but, don't bother to tell me about wrong parts/finishes on my Vette, I built it to do what I want it to do and it does "IT" for me.
Last edited by GREGG-73; Jan 2, 2010 at 03:12 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
I am very happy to hear your "IT" car does it for you. It is not the quest of the the NCRS to make you whole, or feel good about you car. It is a society simply trying to identify.... correctly restored and unrestored car's to the best of their knowledge, history, and past documentation. Please forgive me, but may I ask if you have ever had a car judged? I don't think so, and second hand information is useless. Step up to the plate and let your own car be seen!
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
I am very happy to hear your "IT" car does it for you. It is not the quest of the the NCRS to make you whole, or feel good about you car. It is a society simply trying to identify.... correctly restored and unrestored car's to the best of their knowledge, history, and past documentation. Please forgive me, but may I ask if you have ever had a car judged? I don't think so, and second hand information is useless. Step up to the plate and let your own car be seen!
Our friend has a chip on his shoulder and never passes up an opportunity to let everybody know about it. It's a shame he can't live and let live.The story about the 'paint not being lacquer so it will get a deduct' indicates the lack of judging rules knowledge and is typical of myths the bashers like to perpetuate. This is the type of person I referred to above that will be looking for an argument at every possible moment, most times because he's unfamiliar with the rules and procedures.
There is no requirement in NCRS judging to paint a car with lacquer- the finish only has to LOOK like a factory style lacquer paint job. The materials actually used to do the car are irrelevant.
If anything, the paint might have been too perfect (over restored) which gets just a big a deduct as under restored or incorrectly restored.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 65,492
Likes: 230
From: Orange Park Florida
I am wearing a sweatshirt right this minit....says 'NCRS' on it....
NOT Correctly Restored Stingray'.....
My car is a hotrod, born as one for model year '72, and been a show car or hotrod since then....
i'ts better than St. Louis did it....even with a poor paint job...
one thing to keep in mind, as the years go by, the restored cars loose value and the hotrods keep their value for various reasons, ONE being the generational changes.....guys remembering them NEW die off or don't care, and guys knowing them as hotrods take over....prices reflect that fact in the car hobby....
NOT Correctly Restored Stingray'.....
My car is a hotrod, born as one for model year '72, and been a show car or hotrod since then....
i'ts better than St. Louis did it....even with a poor paint job...
one thing to keep in mind, as the years go by, the restored cars loose value and the hotrods keep their value for various reasons, ONE being the generational changes.....guys remembering them NEW die off or don't care, and guys knowing them as hotrods take over....prices reflect that fact in the car hobby....
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
Pro
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
From: London England
I'm intrigued by this NCRS stuff as obviously we don't have anything like it here.
I fully understand that putting together an NCRS car could be a great past time, doing the research, gathering the parts, doing some spanner work.
Saying that, in the UK (nothing to do with Corvettes) there are many car clubs where any kind of show judging becomes a 'who you know' rather than 'what you've done'. I've seen sub-par cars win prizes, I've also seen ex-winning cars that have been bought, modified by 5% and re-entered and won again. The linking factor being that unless you're part of the 'club clique' then you stand no chance of winning anything.
Out of interest, how much does NCRS certification add to the resale value of a Corvette?
I fully understand that putting together an NCRS car could be a great past time, doing the research, gathering the parts, doing some spanner work.
Saying that, in the UK (nothing to do with Corvettes) there are many car clubs where any kind of show judging becomes a 'who you know' rather than 'what you've done'. I've seen sub-par cars win prizes, I've also seen ex-winning cars that have been bought, modified by 5% and re-entered and won again. The linking factor being that unless you're part of the 'club clique' then you stand no chance of winning anything.
Out of interest, how much does NCRS certification add to the resale value of a Corvette?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,813
Likes: 1
From: JOPPA MD
I'm intrigued by this NCRS stuff as obviously we don't have anything like it here.
I fully understand that putting together an NCRS car could be a great past time, doing the research, gathering the parts, doing some spanner work.
Saying that, in the UK (nothing to do with Corvettes) there are many car clubs where any kind of show judging becomes a 'who you know' rather than 'what you've done'. I've seen sub-par cars win prizes, I've also seen ex-winning cars that have been bought, modified by 5% and re-entered and won again. The linking factor being that unless you're part of the 'club clique' then you stand no chance of winning anything.
Out of interest, how much does NCRS certification add to the resale value of a Corvette?
I fully understand that putting together an NCRS car could be a great past time, doing the research, gathering the parts, doing some spanner work.
Saying that, in the UK (nothing to do with Corvettes) there are many car clubs where any kind of show judging becomes a 'who you know' rather than 'what you've done'. I've seen sub-par cars win prizes, I've also seen ex-winning cars that have been bought, modified by 5% and re-entered and won again. The linking factor being that unless you're part of the 'club clique' then you stand no chance of winning anything.
Out of interest, how much does NCRS certification add to the resale value of a Corvette?
United Kingdom Chapter
*Please note: 5 hours later than EST!!!
Role Assigned Person Phone E-mail
Chairman: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
Vice-Chairman: Tom Moss 00441708705328 tmoss@pembrook.co.uk
Judging Chairman: Tom Falconer 441634244444 tfalconer@btinternet.com
Event Administrator: Tom Falconer 441634244444 tfalconer@btinternet.com
Secretary: Jack Cooper 441256764193 jackcooper350@tonetel.net
Membership Manager: Chris Sale cjsale@dial.pipex.com
Membership Administrator: Chris Sale cjsale@dial.pipex.com
Newsletter Editor: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
Treasurer:
Contact Person: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
Pro
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
From: London England
Oh, yes you do.....
United Kingdom Chapter
*Please note: 5 hours later than EST!!!
Role Assigned Person Phone E-mail
Chairman: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
Vice-Chairman: Tom Moss 00441708705328 tmoss@pembrook.co.uk
Judging Chairman: Tom Falconer 441634244444 tfalconer@btinternet.com
Event Administrator: Tom Falconer 441634244444 tfalconer@btinternet.com
Secretary: Jack Cooper 441256764193 jackcooper350@tonetel.net
Membership Manager: Chris Sale cjsale@dial.pipex.com
Membership Administrator: Chris Sale cjsale@dial.pipex.com
Newsletter Editor: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
Treasurer:
Contact Person: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
United Kingdom Chapter
*Please note: 5 hours later than EST!!!
Role Assigned Person Phone E-mail
Chairman: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
Vice-Chairman: Tom Moss 00441708705328 tmoss@pembrook.co.uk
Judging Chairman: Tom Falconer 441634244444 tfalconer@btinternet.com
Event Administrator: Tom Falconer 441634244444 tfalconer@btinternet.com
Secretary: Jack Cooper 441256764193 jackcooper350@tonetel.net
Membership Manager: Chris Sale cjsale@dial.pipex.com
Membership Administrator: Chris Sale cjsale@dial.pipex.com
Newsletter Editor: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
Treasurer:
Contact Person: Trevor Rogers +44 20 8392 4404 trevor@stingrayproductions.co.uk
If you put NCRS in a for sale ad, 95% of the people looking at the ad wouldn't know what it meant.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
To say that a car has been certified might imply that it has been 'authenticated' after being 'verified'. A person may conclude that the NCRS has certified a car as being (say) a genuine L89 with it's original engine, transmission, rear end and all factory accessories and components right down to every last nut and bolt, not to mention the paint, interior etc etc.
The truth is quite the opposite. No effort is made to authenticate any component and no certification is given to this effect. People fail to read the disclaimer on the back of the sheet, or as shown by our chip on the shoulder friend above, do not possess sufficient understanding of the rules.
Buying a car solely on the strength of a Flight Award (or paying extra for it), without due inspection and supporting documentation is foolish indeed.
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 561
Likes: 1
From: No longer in Heaven
Look again, it's not mine it's my wife's car. I only got to do the labor of the restoration for the last 3 years. After the LT-1 was finished my wife said, sell the C5 Z06, I'm keeping this car! That's why she's my kind of girl. Easy car to find, think about my screen name "SOLID" last hint
That's a nice looking car, and we're all glad it floats your boat, but your OPINION on originality is just that. It's clear from your posts here that you don't really understand the purpose or mission of the NCRS, but you shouldn't knock it.
If you want to modify your car, that's your prerogative, and that's cool. If others strive to attain a high degree of originality, judged by the NCRS, or Bloomington, that's their choice. One's not necessarily better than the other.
Updating a classic for improved performance is an admirable activity, getting into the nitty gritty of matching numbers and originality, scrabbling for just the right fastener or **** can also be very rewarding.
I prefer originality and enjoy the research, the hunt and the ultimate find, but I'm not going to criticize your TKO 5 speed.
