What is the goal when having a car judged by the NCRS guidelines? Is the maximum possible score 100 points? Does this mean that all cars start at 100 points and then receive deductions to arrive at a final score?

Reason I ask is...suppose we have 3 Corvettes, all the same year and same general options. All three cars were stored indoors, received the same excellent care and for argument's sake...let's say they each were driven the same amount...1500 miles/year. Detailed service records were kept for each car.

Car #1 looks completely original and in showroom condition. The service records show that 1 week after purchase, the heater core busted, shorted some wires under the dash and the interior carpet was ruined. All was replaced (by dealer) under warranty.

Car #2 is also in perfect looking condition. This car received a luggage rack about 6 months after purchase because the owners decided they needed it for weekend trips. The luggage rack was dealer installed.

Car #3 is visually perfect as the others. 1 month after purchase, the engine had a ticking noise. The proud owner would not accept a mechanic's fix and demanded a replacement engine. The dealer ordered a service replacement engine and installed it in the car and the car has run perfectly every since.

How do each of the 3 cars score per the NCRS rules? Car #1 and #3 had defective parts replaced by the dealer but #3's engine block no longer has the VIN # on the stamping block and the casting numbers may not be correct. Car #2 received an accessory that did not come from the factory.

All 3 cars have excellent documentation as previously described.

I am curious to hear from actual NCRS members if possible. Are judging rules supposed to score a car as it left the factory or as it left the dealer or something else entirely?

 

Pretty much, as it left the factory.

Car #1- heater cores and wires under the dash are not judged. As long as the carpet is original design and not an obvious poor replacement, ("discernable from original") should not lose points.

Car #2 will lose a small point deduction for a non-original rack if it did not come from the factory

Car #3 is no longer a numbers matching motor car and will lose those points.

Miles, service records, etc really dont come into play. You have not described "excellent documentation." Excellent documentation is a tank sticker, window sticker, invoice, ProtectOPlate, etc.

NCRS judging starts with 4500 points, and are deducted from there.
Top Flight = 94-100%, maximum deduction 270 points.

Items are judged on originality, condition & operations.

NCRS also uses a "matrix" system where interior, exterior, mechanical and chassis sections are judged and scored for originality and then, if at least 10% of available originality points remain, they judge and score the condition.

(from the 6th edition Judging manual... not sure if there's been changes)

 

I'll first give you an answer you weren't expecting. These three fictitious Corvettes would be best off in the Bowtie/Star program that recognizes cars that are unrestored, preserved examples of what rolled off the assembly line. These cars are used to collect data to ensure that the judging guides are correct and complete. In each case you mention, the cars have had repairs and modifications done after it left the factory so each would receive deductions. It's possible that the car with the luggage rack would receive the highest level award as all the original untouched hardware is there, except for a few small holes in the rear deck. Possibly the car with the replacement interior and heater would do equally well, depending on how undetectable the repairs were. Ironically the car would be a clear winner had the damage not been repaired and simply left as-is. Condition of the car is not important in this type of judging, untouched and original is. The car with the replaced engine would not do as well as it would be obvious that this is not the engine installed in St. Louis. Aside from that, each of the cars are the holy grail of the NCRS as a car is original only once, but can be restored any number of times.

Now for the answer you probably expecting.

In NCRS Flight Judging, the goal is to present a car that looks precisly as a dealer would delever to the first owner, minus any owner or dealer inspired additions or deletions. All cars start with 4500 points, and deductions large and small are made from that. The final score is converted to a percentage and a Flight award is made according to the range that the percentage fits into. Contrary to common misconception NO documentation is looked at or taken into account other than to substantiate factory errors or exceptions, for example a trim tag that calls for blue paint and it is known that the car was actually red straight from the factory. There is also no attempt to authenticate or certify any car or part of a car as being original untouched. A perfect restamp engine scores the same as a factory original engine. This makes me cringe every time I see someone buying a car sight unseen on the strength of a Flight Award.

As to which car would do the best in Flight judging, the answer is 'all of them'. The car with the luggage rack would get a tiny deduct not for the presence of the rack, but for the lack of fibreglass where the holes now are. (true! ) The car with the replaced carpet might not get a deduct if the replacement was done well, but in this case would probably score better than if it were not replaced, as condition counts in this type of judging. The car with the replacement engine might do very well indeed, but this would depend on the replacment engine casting number, casting date and info on the stamp pad. If very very lucky the deduction would only equal that made for a burnt out instrument lamp, a measly 25 points.


Flight judging is not the big bad black evil devil it's made out to be. There is a very logical well laid out process behind it that's been refined over the last 30 years.

Oh, I am a memebr BTW.

 

That depends, and this is why NCRS steers clear of the phrase 'matching numbers'.

If the casting number of the replacement engine is not 'correct' then a deduction of 350 points is made and no further judging on the block is conducted.

If the casting number is OK but the casting date is outside of typical factory production then a deduction of 180 points is made and judging on the block is stopped there.

If the casting date and casting number are OK, the pad is evaluated for three separate, independently judged features carrying the following points:

Pad surface (broach marks) 38 points
VIN derivative 25 points
Engine machine code 25 points

If the car in question received a genuine, correctly stamped factory replacement short block that was assembled less than six months before the completion date of the car, the only deduction would be 25 points for the lack of a VIN derivative.

I know of an actual car that fits these circumstances.

 

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the info. I was wondering what an ideal car would be and why. Sounds like the group is looking for a car that is exactly how it left the factory. Would this also include such things as tags and plastic wrapping (seat covers etc). For instance, I once read that some parts were in a little brown bag or pouch and stored in one of the rear compartments. If that pouch was undisturbed and still in that compartment...there would be no points deduction, correct? By the same token, points must be deducted if the pouch is missing.

Of course the 3 cars are fictional....but based on the judging rules the owner of Car #1 would score maximum points if he/she would remove the heater core and carpet repair ticket from the stack of documentation and simply fail to disclose that anything had ever been changed on the car.

I also agree that each of these 3 fictional cars would be best shown as survivors and not judged as restorations. Would it be a fair statement to say that NCRS is generally interested in the hobby of restoring cars?

I think it's good for the hobby that an organization such as NCRS exists and has compiled a tremendous amount of data. My current project is a '55 Bel Air V8 and I am attempting to restore the car to the same condition as when it was delivered to the first owner. Not how it left the factory. Back in '55, most of the accessories were dealer added so it's not really practical to get it back to the condition as it left the factory. Basically I wish to drive the car and experience it the way the first owner would have experienced the car. I was curious if the NCRS was more centered around how the car left the dealership or how it left the factory.

Thanks again for the info. Much appreciated.

 

That's pretty cool. It's the stories that make up part of the interest. A machine is just a machine, but the history and events really add to the interest of these collectibles.

My father-in-law has a '61 Bel Air 348 manual trans. He worked at the dealership at the time and bought the car new, right off the train with 3 tenths of a mile on the odometer. He did NOT want an Impala and was holding out for a Bel Air Sport Coupe. He wanted it White with a red stripe and red/white interior. He also wanted the Super Sport Package. For whatever reason, the dealership kept getting stiffed on the Super Sports...he had one ordered, but it never shipped. Eventually the sales manager cut him a deal and he took delivery of the regular Bel Air with '348 and 3 speed (on the column). The exterior was all white. The dealer painted a red stripe per his request. About 4 months later, the Super Sports began shipping. The dealer ordered SS badges and a 4 speed with floor shifter. He never installed the trans or the badges and has them in the original packaging still.

This car will probably be my next project after the '55. I'll probably keep the extra parts in the bag and tell the story to whoever seems interested

 

I've heard of a couple as well.

Just to clarify my point, while I agree NCRS steers clear of the phrase matching numbers, I was using the expression in the context that the only numbers on the engine that are considered matching are in fact the VIN derivative. So, my terminology was referring to exactly the deduction Mike is talking about, which is the incorrect VIN derivative.

I should not use the term in a question like this, because the term is so often used incorrectly that it easily causes confusion.

 

It's how the car left the dealership (not the factory) with the exception of dealer or owner inspired options or deletions. That's why a luggage rack (dealer installed) gets a deduct. Very few Corvette options were dealer installed which sounds quite different than your Bel Air.

The pouch with the seat shims was to be delivered to the owner, so it's judged.

Paperwork of any type is not examined so service records are irrelevant. Since the 'R' in NCRS is for restoration, a car presented for Flight Judging is presumed to have been restored one way or another. Who why when is not questioned.

If anything, there's equal or more interest in preservation, hence the Bowtie program, so in retrospect it should have been called the NCRaPS. Possibly this name was not chosen for rather obvious reasons

PS- I'm glad you used the term hobby. Too many people forget this detail.

 

Thank you for the additional clarification. I too refrained from the term "numbers matching" in my original question.

Mike,
What are broach marks?

 

Broaching is a specialized machining process that involves dragging a very long machine tool resembling a coarse file across the surface of the raw casting to cut away metal in a rapid but precise manner. This how the cylinder head and oil pan mating flanges on both SBC and BBC engines were finished, except that the tool was held stationary and the block pushed through the machine. Very impressive sight.

Residual machining (tool) marks were left behind, with appearance depending heavily on how sharp the cutting tools were. Other methods ('decking the block') leave a different pattern which would not be typical of factory production. Most aftermarket shops use a rotary cutter which leaves an oblique swirl mark.

Stands out like a sore thumb.

 

This one coment of "it's how it left the dealer" sounds like a contradiction because a car could of had a replacement engine before even being delivered. I mean if it is a deduction for a non factory block. Or did I miss understand to comment?

 

Hi B76,
I'd encourage you buy the TECHNICAL INFORMATION MANUAL AND JUDGING GUIDE for the year car (cars) you're interested in and then write the National Judging Chairman for a copy of the judging sheets that are used for Flight Judging for those cars. Those sheets are Operations, Exterior, Interior, Mechanical, and Chassis. I think you'll be surprised how many things are judged, and how easy it is to have a award winning car.
The NCRS, especially at the Chapter level is a VERY friendly, and low key.
Check out the NCRS web site. I think you'll found lots of information and answers to questions you may be thinking about.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
Regards,
Alan

Here's a couple of pictures from the Fall, Mason-Dixon Chapter, meet. People spending a day looking at some GREAT old cars.

 

Hi MA,
You raise a good point.
I believe that the car owner would need to provide excellent documentation to prove that the engine presently in the car was replaced after delivery to the dealer but before delivery to the first owner.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!
Regards,
Alan

 

 

Alan, I find all of this really interesting ... but 'Mike Ward' stated in an earlier post that "Paperwork of any type is not examined ..." so how would engine replacement documentation be handled? Or are there exceptions to Mike's statement, in this case?

 

This is all more art than science, but Alan mentioned that you would need to "prove" an anomaly, that the engine was replaced by the dealer.

Documentation is not a part of judging, however, if a car has an anomaly, like a replaced engine prior to delivery, NCRS will accept documentation to substantiate the originality of the anomaly.

If you don't have some unusual characteristic which you believe to be "original", NCRS doesn't consider documentation.

 

Just to ad to the above...your doc's to prove the anomaly better be "Iron Clad"....and thats not to say wether or not the judges accept it / them. If, deemed suspect, thats all she wrote! I've seen owner's with tears in their eye's when such doc's were dismissed. Chapter level judging is one thing...as you move into the Regional and National level...thats a whole new ball game. Have your doc's validated prior to submitting them at the time of Flight judging. How to validate your doc's is a thread unto it self. Just food for thought. Good luck on whatever road you decide to travel.

 

Hi 70Y,
The NCRS has a CORVETTE JUDGING REFERENCE MANUAL. It's in it's seventh edition and was last updated in 2005. VERY LITTLE CHANGES EDITION TO EDITION. This manual is in addition to the tech manual/judging guides for each model year that people are much more familiar with.
In the section titled... "NCRS, Judging Purpose, Standards, Guidelines, Rules and Procedures", section #20 is "Documentation". In part it is stated that in all cases the owner is solely responsible for providing any supporting documentation, IF REQUESTED, to the judges which may help substantiate the legitimacy of any judged item on their car. In addition to the judging team for the car, the the Team Leader and the Meet Judging Chairman may be consulted.
Over the last 20 years I only remember one very angry owner and a couple of disappointed owners. My experience has been that owners are well aware about the truth of the car they've brought for judging.
The idea is NOT to have owners who have gone through the trouble to present their cars, given the judges the pleasure of looking them over in detail, go home mad.
Regards,
Alan

The VAST majority of cars presented for judging receive Flight Awards.

 

I think I will do just that. Thank you for the suggestion. I don't believe the condition of my car is anywhere close to being ready for NCRS judging. It has 60k original miles and has received very few modifications but shows wear and tear associated with the use it has seen. At this time, it is a 'driver' car and this suites me just fine. My wife and I drive it to breakfast every weekend and we discuss what our plans are for that day. It's been a great car so far. Maybe someday I will attempt a restoration but in the meantime it would be good to know what the NCRS is all about. I still kick myself because I replaced the alternator a while back and turned in the original unit as a core. (still can't believe I did that...)
I had to replace the gas tank cap a few years back for emission purposes, but I did save the original one. Mufflers, fan belts, shocks, brake pads and tires have been replaced over the years as well. All in all I believe I have a pretty complete car to start with in the event I decide to restore it some day.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions and comments. This has been very helpful.

 

Please have a read of what I said about documentation in my first post. Although it seems unfair or a contradiction, ya have to draw a line on the sand somewhere and I see both sides of the argument.

If the engine was replaced it does seem unfair that the owner would be penalized, but the point hit would be very trivial- the same as a burnt out instrument lamp or a cigarette lighter that didn't pop up 'normally'.

There is a well known case of an owner blowing the engine as he drove off the lot due to lack of oil pressure (factory fault). The engine was replaced with a CE and gets the minor deduct as noted above. Again I can see both sides of the argument and dance from one foot to the other as it appears that this was a factory error.

One point I cannot overemphasize is to remember that Flight Judging does NOT certify a car as having an original or authentic engine block- or any other component. It's all about appearance of being typical of factory production. That's why I mentioned the Bowtie program first.

Usually disagreements on the judging field involve an unprepared owner or an inexperienced judge. If an owner or judge is not enjoying themselves, they're doing it wrong.