#s match question
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Tolland CT
#s match question
I've been reading about some repairs people are doing where the frame is nearly rusted away, huge sections missing or crumbling. I've wondered what may drive people to save a vehicle in such poor condition, other than just the challenge. If a Corvette is #s matching so far as the engine block, transmission, and rear end go, is it still #s matching if the frame is replaced? Does anybody check this? I've never heard of new numbers being stamped on a frame.
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: LaVista Ne
Just put my body back on my frame. I can tell you that the VIN is stamped on the frame. My car has the original frame, however it does not have the original tranny, so no numers match for me, just a fun ride.
Kelley
Kelley
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Tolland CT
Non original tranny... close...certainly enjoy the car, that's why some of us buy them..
Obviously a non numbers matching frame would technically make it non numbers matching. I was wondering how often a numbers matching vehicle may be rescued, severe frame rot, replacing the frame with another. Is the frame number normally verified as part of the inspection? Other than DMV (they verified mine)... Not easy to read when the body is on. Wondering if there's any financial gain in rescuing a numbers matching vehicle if the frame is toast vs any other which may not be #s matching.
Administrator
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From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
Engine vs body VIN, + tranny is essentially the heart of "numbers matching." You will get all sorts of people confusing numbers matching with "correct" or "appropriate" part numbers and date codes, but that is not part of the matching concept. I suppose the trim tag needs to "match" the colors and date, but even the date isnt an exact match.
Yes, technically, there's a VIN on the frame but I've never seen a buyer work very hard at trying to find a correct matching VIN on a frame. People look real hard at the kickups for rust, the body mounts, the rails for damage and repair, but VINs? Not really.
Now, if you rescued a car and put an incorrect year frame under it, to the point where it could be noticed by a sharp-eyed buyer or judge, all bets are off.
Yes, technically, there's a VIN on the frame but I've never seen a buyer work very hard at trying to find a correct matching VIN on a frame. People look real hard at the kickups for rust, the body mounts, the rails for damage and repair, but VINs? Not really.
Now, if you rescued a car and put an incorrect year frame under it, to the point where it could be noticed by a sharp-eyed buyer or judge, all bets are off.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Crossville TN
If you have to cut out the section with the VIN stamp, just replace it and re-stamp the frame. You haven't replaced the frame...just repaired it. If you have to change out the entire frame, it's your call as to what you do in that instance. It's not illegal (and, IMO, not unetical) to restamp a frame when restoring a car.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Tolland CT
If you have to cut out the section with the VIN stamp, just replace it and re-stamp the frame. You haven't replaced the frame...just repaired it. If you have to change out the entire frame, it's your call as to what you do in that instance. It's not illegal (and, IMO, not unetical) to restamp a frame when restoring a car.
If replacing and restamping a frame is acceptable, why isn't replacing and restamping a block OK? Is it because the owner may not be replacing the motor with an identical version of what was there before? Possibly making a clone to pass off as original and ask a higher price?
If this is the case, would it be acceptable to replace a block and restamp IF documentation existed which confirmed the block was a true exchange? I suspect not, wondering. Pretty sure most DMVs wouldn't be happy either since it's part of the identification unique to that vehicle. Once a major component has been replaced it would seem the originality is lost.
I think DMV would disagree on altering serial numbers on the frame. They checked mine many years ago to be certain it matched.
Seems numbers matching is a somewhat vague term. Only consistency I've noted is VIN on the pillar, engine and transmission....
Team Owner
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From: Southbound
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Depends on whose definition of "matching numbers" you use.
Why restamp a frame? One stamp location cannot be seen with the body on the frame and the second stamp is difficult to see at best even in good lighting conditions. The NCRS does not judge frame stamps; Bloomington might.
That's the proverbial can of worms being opened. Some folks say it's okay to restamp a block, others disagree. Still others attempt to take a middle of the road approach with an excuse like "It's okay to restamp if..." followed by three or four instances where they feel restamping is okay, followed by three or four exmaples of where restamping is not okay.
There is no consensus on this point.
...If replacing and restamping a frame is acceptable...
...why isn't replacing and restamping a block OK?...
There is no consensus on this point.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
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There seems to be a lot of gray area wrt matching numbers. Questions I ask are out of curiousity, trying to gain a better understanding of the market, the reasons why the originality of some parts are very important others not .... The degree of originality people expect seems to be a bit variable as well.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Nevada City California
BBCorv70,
I am a originality person, so "matching numbers" would mean to me that a Corvette model would have thee original frame, original cylinder case, original transmission case, along with the original VIN plate. The big BUT for me would be that they would ALSO include ALL of the correct components to these items. Such as internals to the engine cylinder case, internals to the trans. case, correct configured and dated components to the frame. And original fiberglass and external body trim/components to the original body.
Pretty much I prefer original, unaltered Corvettes, still as they were built and configured from the St. Louis factory, since my preference is for 1968 through 1972 model years.
I am a originality person, so "matching numbers" would mean to me that a Corvette model would have thee original frame, original cylinder case, original transmission case, along with the original VIN plate. The big BUT for me would be that they would ALSO include ALL of the correct components to these items. Such as internals to the engine cylinder case, internals to the trans. case, correct configured and dated components to the frame. And original fiberglass and external body trim/components to the original body.
Pretty much I prefer original, unaltered Corvettes, still as they were built and configured from the St. Louis factory, since my preference is for 1968 through 1972 model years.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: Pittsburgh suburbs Pa.
BBCorv70,
I am a originality person, so "matching numbers" would mean to me that a Corvette model would have thee original frame, original cylinder case, original transmission case, along with the original VIN plate. The big BUT for me would be that they would ALSO include ALL of the correct components to these items. Such as internals to the engine cylinder case, internals to the trans. case, correct configured and dated components to the frame. And original fiberglass and external body trim/components to the original body.
Pretty much I prefer original, unaltered Corvettes, still as they were built and configured from the St. Louis factory, since my preference is for 1968 through 1972 model years.
I am a originality person, so "matching numbers" would mean to me that a Corvette model would have thee original frame, original cylinder case, original transmission case, along with the original VIN plate. The big BUT for me would be that they would ALSO include ALL of the correct components to these items. Such as internals to the engine cylinder case, internals to the trans. case, correct configured and dated components to the frame. And original fiberglass and external body trim/components to the original body.
Pretty much I prefer original, unaltered Corvettes, still as they were built and configured from the St. Louis factory, since my preference is for 1968 through 1972 model years.
. It started out back in the fifties as just having a nice hotrod and having fun with it , then the snobs got involved and started checking numbers on the engine to see if it was the one that came in the car. Did it make it run any better or let you have any more fun ? Noooo! Then it progressed like a fungus into the right colors, then every part on the car, now to rediculous prices of just about every car out there including 4 doors and cars that you would have never looked twice at years ago. Now the fungus has evolved into the massive greed and arrogance that you see in the car prices today and everyone sitting on cars trying to sell them at rediculous prices that they think will come because they see others with the same prices. Advertised prices don't mean that they are all selling for that but somebody needs to tell everyone that. Maybe I just did ! 
Race Director
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This is why this whole numbers thing is . It started out back in the fifties as just having a nice hotrod and having fun with it , then the snobs got involved and started checking numbers on the engine to see if it was the one that came in the car. Did it make it run any better or let you have any more fun ? Noooo! Then it progressed like a fungus into the right colors, then every part on the car, now to rediculous prices of just about every car out there including 4 doors and cars that you would have never looked twice at years ago. Now the fungus has evolved into the massive greed and arrogance that you see in the car prices today and everyone sitting on cars trying to sell them at rediculous prices that they think will come because they see others with the same prices. Advertised prices don't mean that they are all selling for that but somebody needs to tell everyone that. Maybe I just did !
. It started out back in the fifties as just having a nice hotrod and having fun with it , then the snobs got involved and started checking numbers on the engine to see if it was the one that came in the car. Did it make it run any better or let you have any more fun ? Noooo! Then it progressed like a fungus into the right colors, then every part on the car, now to rediculous prices of just about every car out there including 4 doors and cars that you would have never looked twice at years ago. Now the fungus has evolved into the massive greed and arrogance that you see in the car prices today and everyone sitting on cars trying to sell them at rediculous prices that they think will come because they see others with the same prices. Advertised prices don't mean that they are all selling for that but somebody needs to tell everyone that. Maybe I just did ! There's a huge volume of non-original cars out there to choose from, and more and more end up that way as they all get older. Non-original means much lower price. If you don't give a hoot about numbers, what's your beef?
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: Pittsburgh suburbs Pa.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
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I read it about three times before I responded. Sounds like you just want to rant about the world placing more value on things that are 'rare' versus 'common'. Guess you don't know any coin or stamp collectors?
How can a penny be worth hundreds or thousands of dollars if it's only worth a penny?
How can a penny be worth hundreds or thousands of dollars if it's only worth a penny?
Team Owner
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From: Southbound
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Team Owner
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From: Crossville TN
As with anything on an "open" Forum, you can say what you want. Whether anyone "hears" what you said...or even cares...is up for grabs. That's why it is a Forum and not an 'expert' resource. 
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2009
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2024 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
I read it about three times before I responded. Sounds like you just want to rant about the world placing more value on things that are 'rare' versus 'common'. Guess you don't know any coin or stamp collectors?
How can a penny be worth hundreds or thousands of dollars if it's only worth a penny?
How can a penny be worth hundreds or thousands of dollars if it's only worth a penny?
Those with money have always been able to buy the rarest or the best of everything...so get over it. Envying the rich (snobs?) is such a wasted emotion. I think it is absolutely great that so many people still find old vettes (even C3s) worthy of collecting. Otherwise most all of them would already be in the junkyard, or modified into something beyond recognition. I only blame myself for not being smart enough to buy an L88 back in the days and keeping it original.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Tolland CT
RE: Prices... just because someone asks a high price doesn't mean they actually get it.
Question I posed a while back was how much for a non original? Seems to be an unanswerable question. People write in once in a while asking what is this car worth? Only numbers I see are prices asked for numbers matching. Even those numbers aren't reliable unless there are some statistics on what the sale price actually was.
For collectors this makes sense. For those looking for weekend drivers, maybe not. A non collectable would be cheaper. How much cheaper... don't know.... too many variables?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Nevada City California
RE: Prices... just because someone asks a high price doesn't mean they actually get it.
Question I posed a while back was how much for a non original? Seems to be an unanswerable question. People write in once in a while asking what is this car worth? Only numbers I see are prices asked for numbers matching. Even those numbers aren't reliable unless there are some statistics on what the sale price actually was.
For collectors this makes sense. For those looking for weekend drivers, maybe not. A non collectable would be cheaper. How much cheaper... don't know.... too many variables?
Team Owner
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From: Southbound
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Tolland CT
If this was on eBay, we won't know if the sale was completed.
Funny thing when doing some research on typical values of NOM cars vs number matching is almost ALL Corvettes I see advertised are "numbers matching". Few will state it's NOM. If this were true, then numbers matching cars should be plentiful, not rare at all? Have to wonder how often the term is abused.