The November Newsletter from Blackstone Labs has an article where they ran their flat tappet engine without any ZDDP at all to see what happens. I also found it interesting that many oils still have quite high levels of zinc and phosphorus anyway so is anyone really following the EPA mandate? At any rate, this tester found some oil without any of these additives and ran his engine for 2 1/2 years and the reports show minimal wear.

Here is a link:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsl...ber-1-2010.php

Happy Holidays!

 

I've long suspected the reason for most of the cam failures is that many of the cam companies use cheap chinese blanks. Substandard metal & hardening will make it fail for sure. Then they conveniently blame the instal or the oil.

 

Guess I just got a bad cam from Comp then, this is the results of 248 miles in a 440 with Castrol in it. Same break in proceedures I've used for 30 years, except after break in I was being pushed to get it to a car show, and after it was all over, I forgot to add anything to the oil till I'd put about 100 miles on it. When I tore it down, almost all the lifters had worn down about 1/16th" flat, before they started cupping and developing holes.

 

You boys better rethink about this,i know for a fact the oil is wiping out engines that dont have enough zinc in them,i also know it was all cam makers cams that were wiping,so i wouldnt think its the cam,it is the oil.Guys with older cars that have been running fine until all this oil situation arrived,their engines were wiping the lobes on their cams,So it would be the old cams too ,along with the new ones wiping out,its the oil ,no doubts here,and if i were you guys i wouldnt play into this black stone news letter.It could be VERY costly for ya.

 

For sure, Chinese steel can be blamed for many things these days. It would be interesting to know which manufacturers use quality steel and which do not. I suspect the price of the item will give a clue.

I wonder if low levels of ZDDP expose some other issue that would otherwise take much longer to present itself, such as valve train geometry or excessive spring pressures etc. Reason why I ponder this is because I've had 3 wiped cams in my personal history....all 3 happened with engines running Rhodes lifters and the time frame was right around 1987-1993, so this was way before the EPA mandate to eliminate the additive from engine oil formulas.

In contrast, I still drive around in our '61 Bel Air with a solid lifter 348 and still use regular ol Valvoline. Never added anything to the oil and my oil analysis reports come back normal. I wonder if this is because it's the original engine build with OEM parts still? Stock cam, stock lifter, stock springs etc so maybe there isn't too much side loading on the lobes? Maybe a modified HP engine with an aggressive cam would be more susceptible to low levels of additive and wear down faster? Perhaps the real issue is that the cam and lifters need to be matched properly? Just throwing ideas out there because I am curious but in a perfect world, wouldn't the cam lobe have a slightly higher rockwell then the lifter base? If so, how important is it that one purchases the cam and lifters from the same manufacturer? Does this matter at all?

Generally speaking, are most of the wiped cams occurring in performance builds while factory engines don't seem to have any problems? My neighbor's '68 BB Chevelle just had it's cam go flat (rebuilt engine) and he was using the additive so maybe there are other contributing issues as well.

It appears that adding ZDDP sure doesn't hurt anything though. I think the real lesson is to sample your oil and monitor the changes. I have found that is the cheapest and most cost effective way to keep my vehicles on the road. You can usually spot failures way before they become a more serious problem and it ends up saving you money. I purchase 10 pack kits at a local lab here in the Phoenix area because it's much more economical in bulk and I have a much easier time keeping up on the maintenance of my vehicles by getting the oil sampled on a regular basis.

 

Part of it's performance engines, but a big part is that the older engines like your 348 already have the zinc infused, embedded and impregnated into the pores of the metal, so they are "grandfathered" in by virtue of the past zinc presence. Do I know if someday down the road the lifters/cam will fail... nope, can't tell you. They shouldn't, cause I think almost all oil still has minute levels in it, just not the recommended levels.

 

The best thing to do is just change over to hydraulic roller cam and be done with it,dont have to worry anymore Plus they run better.

 

I use ZDDP in my big block Buick, but for the Vette, I just went full roller motor.

 

Well, then, I guess the only option is to see if the hydraulic roller fairy will visit my garage over the winter!

 

Here here, best decision on my engine rebuild I ever made.

 

In my opinion and for peace of mind, why not just add ZDDP additive when you change your oil? It can't hurt. For the cost of the additive ($9.97) is nothing compared to the cost of an engine.

 

There's a lot of truth to that. Several years back there were substandard grade cam blanks and lifters coming in from offshore (not necessarily Chinese made) at about the same time ZDDP levels were being reduced in motor oils. Add the two together and you had cam failures.

Tests and research have shown that more often than not, if a cam is going to fail, it will happen during cam break-in, so proper break-in procedures are absolutely critical.

It was also found that the engines most prone to these problems are performance engines...flat-tappet, high compression, high valve spring pressure engines. Lower performance engines were not at nearly the same risk of cam failure.

The problem of low quality cam blanks and lifters is hopefully behind us, though there could certainly still be some out there unsold, waiting to be installed in an engine.

I don't think the motor oils should be held to blame...the oil companies are only providing what the carmakers say they want and what EPA says then can and cannot put in their additive packages. Even if the oils had enough ZDDP for flat-tappet engines, the poor quality cams and lifters would likely still fail early, even if not during break-in.

 

...I myself am just going to continue to use either Classic Motor Oil or Brad Penn Racing Oil, both with high zinc content for my '74 L-48 and '68 convertible(which basically has a '73 L-48 driver motor in it)and not even worry about it.

 

With junk steel finding its way into lots of aftermarket parts these days, it wouldn't hurt to buy a Rc 58 or 59 hardness file. With that, it's a simple matter to use the file to try cutting on the surface of the cam lobes. They should be over Rc 60 hard; and, if so, will not cut into the surface. If the file does cut into the metal, the cam lobes are soft and shouldn't be used. If I were building up a new engine and sinking lots of buck$ into it, you can be sure that I'd check the lobe hardness before installation.

 

The Blackstone guy is a FREEKING IDIOT. Aero motors (at least the Continentals and Lycomings I have looked at) have huge tappet area and are lighly loaded plus, they run at a constant 2000+ RPM compared to an automotive engine idling. He should run a big block motor with stock .842 tappets, agressive lobe pattern like a Comp XE series lobe and stiff valvesprings for a while and tell me again what I don't know.

I will say, I'm not impressed with the quality of today's flat tappet materials and have gone so far as to resurface some old AC Delco stellite tipped tappets for my last LT-1 rebuild. I think there is some possibility of lifter materials causing failures too.

I don't run 1984 truck specifications on my Vette engine builds and I don't think most on this forum do either. I'll say it again, guy is a COMPLETE IDIOT!

 

You do make a couple of good points.

 

I know about ten years ago, A few of us (engine builders) started having A LOT of trouble with a certain cam company named after a long legged bird. Ever since then we stopped using them. All of us were having cam failures for no real reason. They just had soft cams. I can't tell you if they fixed the problem, I never used them again. Something else the manufacturers should keep in mind. My Dad thought I was crazy when I told him about it. Then he bought my Nova and a little while down the road the cam flattened two lobes. Sure enough, that same company's name was stamped on the end of it. We switched to Comp or Lunati for the street stuff flat tappet. All the high horsepower stuff gets solid roller for .650 and up, lift.

 

A friend just bought a '79 where the PO has just rebuilt the motor, a few weeks after the purchase the power went down a little with some ticking noise, the cam has a totally flat two lobes with holes in their lifters, just like what buckNeccid showed.

My Lunati flat tappet camshaft is working PERFECT, just using a bottle of ZDDP with every oil change, I even have a slightly stiffer springs than the recommended and I occasionally (well, almost evertime I take her out!)get the revs past 5000 RPM in every gear change.

 

Anyone who puts their fate in Blackstones hands is asking for trouble. Check out "Bob is the oil guy" web site. Blackstone is not a certified lab, in several areas.

They had a run in, with Valvoline, several years ago over ZDDP levels on VR1 oil. Blackstone was forced to admit that their test equipment was not properly calibrated.

I have been running VR1 for 4-5 years on my 383 stroker, with a CC XE274 cam. No problems.

Check the Valvoline web site for the ZDDP specs on their oils.

 

My original L36 cam got wiped after I bought the car in 2004 with 56000 miles on it. Not knowing anything about reduced zinc levels, I was dumping either Castrol or Shell 20W50 into it over 4 years of light driving, then the ticking started. Was there something wrong with the hardness of the OEM cam? I don't think so.....