[QUOTE=wgarneau;1578653589]I walked away from a 1967 Firebird just two months ago. It was pristine. It had an Olds 454 that was built. Posi 4.11 Ford 9-inch rear end. It looked stock until you popped the hood. $23,000 at a dealer. He had another in the same shape where the numbers matched for $60,000. He had two 67 Vettes in the same shape. Guess what he wanted for those?[QUOTE]

Man you don't give up. You need to spend years studying all types of cars to know what is a good deal or not, or at least to know if the price is in the ballpark. That $23K firebird is what I would call a turd worth maybe $15K even if it were in #2 condition. I would love to see a 67 firebird for $60K - can you take some pics so I can get a laugh?? This is the least desirable year for the little firebirds and only the 400 convertible in #1 (not driven) would come close to $60K. The 67 firebird in general is worth less than a chrome bumber C3.

The 69 camaro is a totally different story and the actual e-bay and Mecum sales tell the story. Compare the following (all 69's):

- 350/300 vette to a 327 or 350 camaro with a 2 or 4 barrell
- 350/350 vette to 350 ss camaro
- 427 vette (no L88 or L89) to any Z28 and 396 camaro (no L89)
- forget about f**king six cylinder camaros

You will see camaros in similar condition go for higher dollars end of story. Your looking at data with no context/experience again. You can't teach this in a textbook

 

How do you draw this conclusion? 67 firebirds are not that desirable and do not bring in more than any C3. A 67 firebird 400 convertible (top car) would definitely bring in less that a 427 vette convertible in similar condition. I watch the market for all of these cool cars and can say this with some level of confidence. 69 firebirds bring a little more than 67/68 firebirds. I love 69 firebirds but would not trade my 427 convertible for a 69 400 convertible in similar condition ANY day.

 

My first statement was talking about a C3 with a NOM. I'm saying a C3 with a NOM gets hammered, a Firebird with a NOM not so much. My assumption is a C3, chrome bumper with NOM may center around $15K, typical base model chrome bumper C3 with numbers may go for up to $25K? If we assume the Bubba'd Firebird mentioned above sells for say 20% less than listed, that's still a bit over $18K. I'm making an assumption that a 'correct, number's match' would sell for significantly more. Could be wrong, I don't follow the Firebird market, Mustangs are what I'm more familiar with. Going with what I'm familiar with, Mustangs, my old 69 Mach1 appears to have gained more value than my 70 Corvette LS5 coupe with less invested in the Mustang. Parts are a lot cheaper and value isn't as severely affected by strict correctness, etc.

I sold the Mach1 because I preferred the Corvette though it appears I may have had a better ROI if I kept the Mustang. I'm with you wrt our Corvettes, love my Corvette, wouldn't trade it for a steel body car. I didn't buy it for investment purposes, more for having a cool hot rod.

So far as comparing C2's go, I see C2's as being in a different league. Prices are higher than C3's. I had a 67 big block convertible, NOM, before I bought the 70. Again, I didn't like the feel of the 67 Convertible as much as the 70 Coupe, personal preference. Even NOM C2's seem to bring in some decent moeny.

 

I think that your spot-on for the mustangs. I've seen a jump in 69/70 mach 1 prices in the last few years even for NOM cars. They are definitely hot. You can still get 67 and even 69 firebird matching numbers cars for cheap. The pontiac 350 and the HO model is a 4 barrell 325 HP. There's a nice 69 350 HO conv. on e-bay right now and its met reserve and its at $15K (all matching). I would compare that car to a 350/350 69 vette with docs (PHS proves firebird pedigree like tank sheet) and I think that comparable vette would bring more money.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...84.m1423.l2649

 

I hate Fords

and so do I

and I also

Me to

count me in

 

One thing I HAVE noticed - and this might be part of what you guys are talking about - is that Corvettes on eBay sell for much less than Corvettes sold elsewhere. Much less. My guess is because of the fiberglass bodies - if an F body or a Mustang is a rust bucket you can pretty much tell by the pictures (and the seller's ratings to make sure you don't have painted masking tape covering holes that rusted through). Corvette bodies don't rust, but the frames, bird cages, and floor panels do.

C3 Corvettes are somewhat unique in that they lend themselves very poorly to purchasing blind.

Buyers hedge uncertainty by offering less money. eBay creates uncertainty - more so with fiberglass bodies than steel ones.

Do a comparison on Craig's List, Autotraderclassics.com, or any dealer website. You may find they people pay significantly more for a C3 when they can crawl around it and check the frame and birdcage than when they are bidding blind online...

That also means that if you are selling a C3 you should probably not sell it on eBay...

 

I used to feel the same toward Chevys... Doesn't matter much to me anymore if the particular model interests me. Maybe even a Javelin, can't recall the name of the specific version, around 69 or 70. AMX? On the other hand I'll never touch a Gremlin or Pacer...

 

Why would you think that a buyer should not crawl under one sold on ebay any more than on craigslist? Just because there's a bidding process doesn't mean that you can't see the car in person before bidding or atleast hire a professional to inspect the car. I would never buy any car on pictures alone

 

You would fly around the country and/or pay professionals to look at cars you are bidding on but might either choose not to bid on or might be outbid on? I don't think most people are willing to do that.

Craig's List is local. And if you decide to buy the car it is yours- there is no chance of being outbid after you decide to make the purchase. It's a very different environment.

 

I was just at the drag races and I think I have an idea why the musclecars fetch more money (on average) than the typical C3; at least I figured out what really attracts me to these cars.

The musclecars of the '60's and '70's have that muscular, "bad ***" look about them and, when optioned properly, have that loping idle that just sounds mean. Just my opinion, but not many C3's have that same look, feel and sound as, say an LS6 big block Chevelle SS. Sure you could get an L88 or even an L89 Corvette that might sound mean and nasty but, the average Joe couldn't afford one of those and most collectors let them sit in their garages or in some static collection.

I also think that we, as Corvette owners, are sometimes our worst enemy when it comes to pumping up the value of our cars. Think about it; if the car isn't matching numbers we place less value on it; if it doesn't have paperwork (tank sticker, window sticker) to go along with it we value it less; if it's modified we cringe and God forbid we drive it in the rain.
When we want to sell the cars we, as owners, want what we consider a fair price but, the potential buyers seem to want the cars for pennies.

Most musclecar owners; and I said MOST, appreciate all cars whether it is a Mustang, Camaro, 'Cuda; etc. Many times I see where some Corvette owners act as if anything other than a Corvette is a turd and that everyone envies the owner of the Corvette (hence the snob reputation we are sometimes labeled with).

So, while I own 2 Corvettes (1969 L46 coupe and a '02 Z06) I appreciate all musclecars and actually would trade my '69 for a comparable musclecar if the offer was right.
In fact, for those of you who stand by the feeling that a nice chrome C3 is worth upwards of $40k I have a deal for you. I will sell my factory black (900 code) L46, all numbers matching car for the bargain price of $28k

 

Some C3s are worth upwards of 40k. 32K would be 'average retail' for yours. If that describes it's condition then as a private sale 28k would be toward the high end of 'about right'.

And if it were a 69 Camaro base coupe you'd be looking at about $13,000 in that shape!

 

A vette will never sound like that because the mufflers are all the way to the back.
Otherwise its the same engine as any other Chevy has.

 

I wouldn't buy one listed that wasn't local if it is just a run of the mill car. If it is something special that is going to cost some bucks to buy then you can bet that I am going to at the very least pay a professional to look at it.

 

Go to ebay motors and type in corvette and then find the "see completed listings" and this will tell you whats selling and whats not and for how much. I just did and the prices will surprise you!

 

Thank you for confirming my observation. When I was shopping for a Vette I was watching eBay and craigslist. But so few nearby Vettes on eBay met reserve that I ran out of patience and bought one off craigslist. But I still watch eBay and some go for so little it breaks my heart. I could have done much better on eBay.

Plus there is less pressure when buying on eBay. You can check the car out then go home and bid. On craigslist you check the car out and say "I'll think about it" which makes you a tire-kicking lookie-loo. Also you negotiate down on craigslist. If a car meets your price you feel like a cheapskate trying to get it for less. And if the price is too high you do not bother looking in the first place. On eBay if it's cheap it's cheap and that's that and if you are outbid there is always another.

 

Here are some actual cars for sale at a dealership in my area:

69 Chevelle SS 4 speed manual - beautiful car for $25,950

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/9896

68 Camaro - also beautiful. $16,650

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/9856

1970 Z28 - numbers matching for $24,950

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/9815

65 Vette - $49,999

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/9796

70 Chevelle SS for $36,000

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/9676

67 GTO for $37,900

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/9655

78 Vette for $17,500

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/9327

67 Firebird for $23,500

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/9257

71 Corvette for $29,950

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/8167

62 Corvette for $39,950

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/8092

65 Vette for $59,975

http://www.classicauto-showplace.com/node/6403

There are lots of cars on here - unfortunately not many C3s. But the numbers follow NADA pretty closely, which is not surprising since the guy is a dealer... And it follows NADA for all cars - including the Corvette C3s.

 

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. I'm more of a regular car guy having owned a string of Mustangs, and a Trans Am before trying out Corvettes. I hadn't had much exposure to 'Corvette' people until I began to hang out on this forum. The vast majority have been very helpful, I've learned a lot, others seem a bit like the stereotypical Corvette owner you mentioned. The deep divide between 'numbers' people and 'NOM/Driver' people is something I've not seen in the muscle car market. I'm wondering if some car people stay away from Corvettes not for technical reasons or style but the reputation of Corvette owners and the perception that if even a bolt somewhere isn't strictly original the value will drop. There's certainly a different mindset between the muscle car guys and Corvette people. Corvette people seem to have more of an antique collector mindset. Not all but most of the guys who are paying the big $$. The talking down of rubber bumper vs chrome bumpers, NOMs vs matching, etc, gets a bit tiring at times. It's been a long time since I've owned a steel body muscle car or hot rod but my recollection is the community was a bit more accepting and willing to see something positive in other's projects.

So far as value of Corvettes, talking about C3's, I'm not convinced they're on the top of the heap. Some steel body muscle cars fetch pretty good money without the expense we run into trying to fix up and maintain our Corvettes. Another way of looking at this may be to ask if we get a better ROI from some steel body cars than from C3 Corvettes. I noted in the case of the Mustangs, they're a lot cheaper to fix up, parts are cheaper, strict originality isn't required as with Corvettes. Even if they were to sell at the same price as a Corvette of the same year they may yield a better ROI?

 

Here is the FACT......as long as we as owners continue to devalue them by placing a heirarchy on them, we as Corvette owners are the cars worst enemy period. I am NOT neccessarily a Corvette guy, I have always been a car guy. The perceptions dictate value. And people percieve Corvette guys as beiing gold chain wearing shirt unbuttoned snobby rich guys. The perception of a musclecar owner is a tough guy with grease under thier fingernails. Perceptions equals reality...and thats the truth. I have zero interest in chrome versus non chrome cars, or original versus modded, I do however drool over a well modded Vette and walk right past the bland original Vettes(to each his own, this is just my opinion), they have no appeal to me at all. And regardless what ANYONE says, there are guys who would pay more for a well done modded Vette than a numbers matching boring original(again my opinion only). That is why the Camaros and others are selling so good, they don't tear their own cars down on forums or anywhere else. So until we quit being our own worst enemy we as owners will continue to devalue these beautiful classics. .....This is the largest Corvette forum on the planet. In this age of the internet, these types of places are where folks go for information, when we have these types of discussions, it will drive down the prices of them, simply stated if the purests continue to say ..."well if you want a true classic it MUST have Chrome bumpers" Or an original motor, or this or that....than those will be the only ones worth anything. I happen to like the late models better(especially heavily well modded ones), I truly don't care if it appreciates but I do care if it has a negative perception.

 

The first two, Chevelle and Camaro are NOMs. I haven't heard of a 69 Corvette NOM going for over $20K. The Chevelle is listed at $25,900. For a Corvette to get this high, I hear it MUST have a matching numbers block. Matching number Chevelle listed further down lists at $36,000, $6000+ over the 71 Corvette matching numbers. The Camaro is listed at a price I'd expect to see a base model 68 Corvette with a NOM at. C2 Corvettes are over $35K as expected, some much more.

 

Well said!!