C3 vs other classics
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 79
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From: reading pa
Vettes were more expensive? Umm I have yet to see even a semi decent Chevelle for under 18k....and that's only semi decent....I decent GTO for that price....yeah right....Maybe a Camaro but even the early second Gens are had to find in good condition for a good price....well you can find one for 15k that Bubbas cousin restored in the shed....the others are a little more....and the ones below 15k..well you will probably have to put in 20k to make it a 15k car...The Corvette IMO are the cheapest next to the camaros....unless you are talking 1969...
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,189
Likes: 111
From: Tolland CT
From a brief survey it appears many of the steel body cars get better money for the investment, not needing the level of absolute perfection and originality the Corvette market demands. Corvettes are far more expensive to bring to the $40K level than others. From a recent listing I surveyed, some Mustangs with NOMs bring better money than some chrome bumper C3's with 'matching numbers'.
Drifting
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 8
From: Atlanta Ga
There are lots of highly collectible years out there - and as a general rule as cassic cars get older they become more rare (particularly in really good condition) and the value goes up.
A 1969 base Corvette in excellent condition can easily get $40,000 and a convertible 350 can get $50,000. There are car's out there that get a lot more - but not the 69 Camaro or Chevelle.
The mistake people often make is to compare a particularly collectible car to ALL C3s, and generally they'll pick a cheaper year for the comparison. They'll say, 'You can get $70,000 for a 69 Camaro Z28 RS - C3s don't come anywhere near that so obviously Corvettes are cheap!'
Well - that's true that a 1969 Camaro Z28 RS can go for as much as $70,000 if it's in good enough condition - and that's more than the base 69 Corvette. But the 69 Z28 RS isn't exactly the base model Camaro.
The Corvette L88 from 1969 can go as high as $500,000. That's not the aluminum block L88 either. The aluminum block L88 is rare enough it'll only sell at auction and it's anyone's guess how much it is worth. Same with the L88 coupe. It's the convertible that sells for 'only' $500,000.
Ironically the base convertible is worth more than the base coupe (the base coupe only 'only' going for about $40,000).
Some C3s are pretty valuable. Others - not so much. But in all cases the Corvette is relatively valuable compared to other similar models of the same year. Sometimes something else is worth more in a particular year - but usually not.
A 1969 base Corvette in excellent condition can easily get $40,000 and a convertible 350 can get $50,000. There are car's out there that get a lot more - but not the 69 Camaro or Chevelle.
The mistake people often make is to compare a particularly collectible car to ALL C3s, and generally they'll pick a cheaper year for the comparison. They'll say, 'You can get $70,000 for a 69 Camaro Z28 RS - C3s don't come anywhere near that so obviously Corvettes are cheap!'
Well - that's true that a 1969 Camaro Z28 RS can go for as much as $70,000 if it's in good enough condition - and that's more than the base 69 Corvette. But the 69 Z28 RS isn't exactly the base model Camaro.
The Corvette L88 from 1969 can go as high as $500,000. That's not the aluminum block L88 either. The aluminum block L88 is rare enough it'll only sell at auction and it's anyone's guess how much it is worth. Same with the L88 coupe. It's the convertible that sells for 'only' $500,000.
Ironically the base convertible is worth more than the base coupe (the base coupe only 'only' going for about $40,000).
Some C3s are pretty valuable. Others - not so much. But in all cases the Corvette is relatively valuable compared to other similar models of the same year. Sometimes something else is worth more in a particular year - but usually not.
You sir need to stop looking at NADA and your pricing program that you made. There are way more Corvettes from that time period that are in better condition than the Muscle/Pony cars...because these cars were beat up and not taken care of. You know why your statistics says base Camaro prices are low...because they are usually junk...and/or not original. C'mon I "could" get a 69 in pretty good shape for 15k but nothing would be original....I know I can get a Corvette in pretty good shape for that price...hell I just have to go to the For Sale Section of this forum.
Yay an l-88 can go for 500k...Go Find an Original 69 ZL-1 Camaro or an L72, hell even an RS/Z28 and see how high that price tag rises.
Replica high performance Muscle Cars go for the same or higher prices of Stock Corvettes....period! Why because in the Muscle car world Mods are ok...in the Corvette World if it aint #s matching...half of the community shuns you.
OK NOW IM DONE
Drifting
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 8
From: Atlanta Ga
Where have base model 69 Corvettes been selling for $40K lately? Maybe a few years ago before the economy tanked.No where...I take that back...there are suckers with money in the world....same person that thinks he found that rare 1983 C3(It's Priceless)
From a brief survey it appears many of the steel body cars get better money for the investment, not needing the level of absolute perfection and originality the Corvette market demands.And this is where the difference lies...The muscle cars don't need to be original or #'s matching to get the same $$$ as the Vettes. So when you do have an Original #s matching car in the same condition as a Vette...the Muscle car demands more $$$ .
From a brief survey it appears many of the steel body cars get better money for the investment, not needing the level of absolute perfection and originality the Corvette market demands.And this is where the difference lies...The muscle cars don't need to be original or #'s matching to get the same $$$ as the Vettes. So when you do have an Original #s matching car in the same condition as a Vette...the Muscle car demands more $$$ .
Pro
Joined: Jul 2011
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I think you are living in a dream world. You are saying that a Base 69,70 Vette typically goes for more than a base Camaro, Chevelle, GTO, Charger, Challenger in decent/good condition???
You sir need to stop looking at NADA and your pricing program that you made. There are way more Corvettes from that time period that are in better condition than the Muscle/Pony cars...because these cars were beat up and not taken care of. You know why your statistics says base Camaro prices are low...because they are usually junk...and/or not original. C'mon I "could" get a 69 in pretty good shape for 15k but nothing would be original....I know I can get a Corvette in pretty good shape for that price...hell I just have to go to the For Sale Section of this forum.
Yay an l-88 can go for 500k...Go Find an Original 69 ZL-1 Camaro or an L72, hell even an RS/Z28 and see how high that price tag rises.
Replica high performance Muscle Cars go for the same or higher prices of Stock Corvettes....period! Why because in the Muscle car world Mods are ok...in the Corvette World if it aint #s matching...half of the community shuns you.
OK NOW IM DONE
You sir need to stop looking at NADA and your pricing program that you made. There are way more Corvettes from that time period that are in better condition than the Muscle/Pony cars...because these cars were beat up and not taken care of. You know why your statistics says base Camaro prices are low...because they are usually junk...and/or not original. C'mon I "could" get a 69 in pretty good shape for 15k but nothing would be original....I know I can get a Corvette in pretty good shape for that price...hell I just have to go to the For Sale Section of this forum.
Yay an l-88 can go for 500k...Go Find an Original 69 ZL-1 Camaro or an L72, hell even an RS/Z28 and see how high that price tag rises.
Replica high performance Muscle Cars go for the same or higher prices of Stock Corvettes....period! Why because in the Muscle car world Mods are ok...in the Corvette World if it aint #s matching...half of the community shuns you.
OK NOW IM DONE
I walked away from a 1967 Firebird just two months ago. It was pristine. It had an Olds 454 that was built. Posi 4.11 Ford 9-inch rear end. It looked stock until you popped the hood. $23,000 at a dealer. He had another in the same shape where the numbers matched for $60,000. He had two 67 Vettes in the same shape. Guess what he wanted for those?
He seems to follow NADA pricing pretty closely too. But hey - it's a dealer.,,
What you are saying is that dealers charge several times more for a Corvette then the Corvette is really worth but that for anything else they charge several times less than the cars are worth. It doesn't work that way.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,189
Likes: 111
From: Tolland CT
I have to agree that the Corvette community seems to have a higher penalty for NOM, but I've got to tell you - at least part of that is because Corvettes carry a higher value. The higher you move up in price the more important it gets.
I walked away from a 1967 Firebird just two months ago. It was pristine. It had an Olds 454 that was built. Posi 4.11 Ford 9-inch rear end. It looked stock until you popped the hood. $23,000 at a dealer. He had another in the same shape where the numbers matched for $60,000. He had two 67 Vettes in the same shape. Guess what he wanted for those?
He seems to follow NADA pricing pretty closely too. But hey - it's a dealer.,,
What you are saying is that dealers charge several times more for a Corvette then the Corvette is really worth but that for anything else they charge several times less than the cars are worth. It doesn't work that way.
I walked away from a 1967 Firebird just two months ago. It was pristine. It had an Olds 454 that was built. Posi 4.11 Ford 9-inch rear end. It looked stock until you popped the hood. $23,000 at a dealer. He had another in the same shape where the numbers matched for $60,000. He had two 67 Vettes in the same shape. Guess what he wanted for those?
He seems to follow NADA pricing pretty closely too. But hey - it's a dealer.,,
What you are saying is that dealers charge several times more for a Corvette then the Corvette is really worth but that for anything else they charge several times less than the cars are worth. It doesn't work that way.
The 67 Firebird as Bubba'd as it is will bring in more than any C3, correct but with a NOM. If we're talking about a 'correct, numbers match' Firebird vs a C3, Ill bet the Firebird will bring in more than all but the very high end C3s in comparable condition. Even a Firebird which isn't strictly original but correct will do better.
To keep things even, may be best to stay with the same years. Compare 68 Firebirds to 68 Vettes, etc...
If investment value were my primary goal, it appears I would have done MUCH better hanging on to the 69 Mustang Mach1. Initial cost, money invested to bring it up to good condition, todays prices.
I attribute much of this to the buyers of Firebirds, Camaros, Chevelles, Mustangs, etc, being car guys. The people in the Corvette crowd who drive the higher prices seem to be more focussed on antique value, a quest for the most perfect original rather than a fun muscle car to drive around in. No worries that a minor mod or a minor whoops will destroy much of its value. Two different sets of interests.
Looking far down the road I personally expect the prices to plateau, then fall as the generations most connected with these cars moves on. Another topic..
Last edited by BBCorv70; Sep 9, 2011 at 05:19 PM.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2011
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When talking about Corvettes, there's a big difference in the value brackets between C2 and C3. C2's are much more valuable, even NOMs. I've assumed we're talking about C3s here.
The 67 Firebird as Bubba'd as it is will bring in more than any C3, correct but with a NOM. If we're talking about a 'correct, numbers match' Firebird vs a C3, Ill bet the Firebird will bring in more than all but the very high end C3s in comparable condition. Even a Firebird which isn't strictly original but correct will do better.
To keep things even, may be best to stay with the same years. Compare 68 Firebirds to 68 Vettes, etc...
If investment value were my primary goal, it appears I would have done MUCH better hanging on to the 69 Mustang Mach1. Initial cost, money invested to bring it up to good condition, todays prices.
I attribute much of this to the buyers of Firebirds, Camaros, Chevelles, Mustangs, etc, being car guys. The people in the Corvette crowd who drive the higher prices seem to be more focussed on antique value, a quest for the most perfect original rather than a fun muscle car to drive around in. No worries that a minor mod or a minor whoops will destroy much of its value. Two different sets of interests.
Looking far down the road I personally expect the prices to plateau, then fall as the generations most connected with these cars moves on. Another topic..
The 67 Firebird as Bubba'd as it is will bring in more than any C3, correct but with a NOM. If we're talking about a 'correct, numbers match' Firebird vs a C3, Ill bet the Firebird will bring in more than all but the very high end C3s in comparable condition. Even a Firebird which isn't strictly original but correct will do better.
To keep things even, may be best to stay with the same years. Compare 68 Firebirds to 68 Vettes, etc...
If investment value were my primary goal, it appears I would have done MUCH better hanging on to the 69 Mustang Mach1. Initial cost, money invested to bring it up to good condition, todays prices.
I attribute much of this to the buyers of Firebirds, Camaros, Chevelles, Mustangs, etc, being car guys. The people in the Corvette crowd who drive the higher prices seem to be more focussed on antique value, a quest for the most perfect original rather than a fun muscle car to drive around in. No worries that a minor mod or a minor whoops will destroy much of its value. Two different sets of interests.
Looking far down the road I personally expect the prices to plateau, then fall as the generations most connected with these cars moves on. Another topic..
And when you show them unbiased sources to use for comparison between values they tell you that the numbers they made up are better...
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Drifting
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 8
From: Atlanta Ga
Corvette First(1,000 mile radius from Atlanta)
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/fi...sationId=17640
Camaro 2nd(250 mile radius from Atlanta)
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/fi...sationId=17635
Pro
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 511
Likes: 0
Ughhh I swear I thought I was done. Well seeing as you are making up numbers for Engine Models...and we have no idea what dealership you went to...Lets get some unbiased values and numbers...
Corvette First(1,000 mile radius from Atlanta)
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/fi...sationId=17640
Camaro 2nd(250 mile radius from Atlanta)
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/fi...sationId=17635
Corvette First(1,000 mile radius from Atlanta)
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/fi...sationId=17640
Camaro 2nd(250 mile radius from Atlanta)
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/fi...sationId=17635
Drifting
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 8
From: Atlanta Ga
You are scaring me here...
There is only one 454 engine(someone jump in if I am wrong)
Buick made a 400, so did Pontiac
Buick and Pontiac made a 455
Buick nor Pontiac made a 454
Now I know this convo has been worthless...I'm arguing with a guy that doesn't even know who makes the 454 engine...
There is only one 454 engine(someone jump in if I am wrong)
Buick made a 400, so did Pontiac
Buick and Pontiac made a 455
Buick nor Pontiac made a 454
Now I know this convo has been worthless...I'm arguing with a guy that doesn't even know who makes the 454 engine...
Pro
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 511
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Sorry - I've never owned an Olds or a Buick. Only Pontiacs, Chevys, Fords, and one Chrysler... It was a 454. Dealer said 'Olds' I think - or maybe Buick (not Chevy and certainly not Pontiac).
If not knowing every detail of every car ever made disqualifies me from conversation then keep making up your own prices...
If not knowing every detail of every car ever made disqualifies me from conversation then keep making up your own prices...
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,189
Likes: 111
From: Tolland CT
He had some C3s but not in great shape. There was a 71 for $14,000 that needed quite a bit of work. There was also a 1978 that was show quality for $17,800. Those are the prices people who want Camaros to be worth more like to compare 69 Camaros to - nice late 73s and trashed chrome bumper cars.
And when you show them unbiased sources to use for comparison between values they tell you that the numbers they made up are better...
And when you show them unbiased sources to use for comparison between values they tell you that the numbers they made up are better...
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 183
Likes: 1
From: Litchfield CT
Spock used to say "live long and Prosper". He forgot to add "and occasionally misbehave"
I'm looking for more photos of some of my prefious projects, toys, and death-wishes.
Super sleeper Dart 440.
67 GTX with 468" B-1 motor (10.60 quarters)
68 GTX 440 4 speed.
Looking for my 500" indy cylinder head Cuda (8.30, street legal, all motor). and my 68 GTX e-stock , 3x NHRA national event winner 11.50's, class legal.
some photos are 11 million years old.
I'm looking for more photos of some of my prefious projects, toys, and death-wishes.
Super sleeper Dart 440.
67 GTX with 468" B-1 motor (10.60 quarters)
68 GTX 440 4 speed.
Looking for my 500" indy cylinder head Cuda (8.30, street legal, all motor). and my 68 GTX e-stock , 3x NHRA national event winner 11.50's, class legal.
some photos are 11 million years old.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,560
Likes: 4
From: Arlington texas
I haven't looked up prices for steel body cars other than 69 - 70 Mustangs, the last ones I owned prior to moving on to Corvettes. I'm astounded to see some of the prices people are getting for these cars. I know them well having done a ground up on my last one. Got to be a lot of nostalgia driving prices for the muscle cars.
Biggest problem with what this thread has become is all the stats being used but IMO they are bias and a model here or a model there is thrown out to make a point or comparison but they don't represent the entire market and they are being provided by NADA which has already been pointed out that it isn't a reflection of the real market, just the dealers part of it but who knows how accurate their own reporting is.
Anyone can come in here and put numbers together to take this in any direction they want it to go. All that I know is that I did my own searching not long ago for a GTO, trans am and camaros and the prices on them compared to a corvette weren't really close. I would have to buy a junk muscle car for what I could get a decent corvette for. Don't believe it just go to our own classifieds and see what people are selling these things for. I'm definitely not going to a dealer and over paying on their prices for one either.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 511
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Well - from what everyone says if you go to a dealer for a Corvette you'll pay at least twice what a car is worth so you'd be a FOOL to buy a Corvette that way - but any other muscle car you could buy it from any dealer and sell it for twice as much.
Classic car dealers collectively sell more classic cars than any other group. The number of car's sold that way is huge - and they spend millions researching the market to find..not the highest prices they can get..but the prices where they turn inventory the most at the right price to maximize their profits.
Dealers can charge more because of the convenience of the sale (having all of those cars in one place, help with financing, etc. all of which reduces transaction costs) and because there is a perception - real or perceived - that they are less apt to try to rip you off. Many people are happy to pay a little more from someone they believe knows what they are selling and knows what it is worth.
NADA is a reflection of the upper end of the market. Drop their prices ten or twenty percent and you have a pretty accurate look at the market.
People don't like NADA or other real-world sources of actual market data because the real world often conflicts with their preconceived beliefs, an they don't want to let go...
And that is the bottom line......
Classic car dealers collectively sell more classic cars than any other group. The number of car's sold that way is huge - and they spend millions researching the market to find..not the highest prices they can get..but the prices where they turn inventory the most at the right price to maximize their profits.
Dealers can charge more because of the convenience of the sale (having all of those cars in one place, help with financing, etc. all of which reduces transaction costs) and because there is a perception - real or perceived - that they are less apt to try to rip you off. Many people are happy to pay a little more from someone they believe knows what they are selling and knows what it is worth.
NADA is a reflection of the upper end of the market. Drop their prices ten or twenty percent and you have a pretty accurate look at the market.
People don't like NADA or other real-world sources of actual market data because the real world often conflicts with their preconceived beliefs, an they don't want to let go...
And that is the bottom line......
Pro
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 689
Likes: 12
From: huntington wv
corvettes have a long run and some are worth a lot and some are not worth beans.when comparing a 78 vette whitch i have to say a 68 firebird whitch i have.the firebird is worth three times as much.if you compare my firebird to a 67 427 vette my firebird is worth a third as much.what im trying to say is its all relevant to what model vette you are comparing to what model camaro,chevelle ,etc.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 511
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corvettes have a long run and some are worth a lot and some are not worth beans.when comparing a 78 vette whitch i have to say a 68 firebird whitch i have.the firebird is worth three times as much.if you compare my firebird to a 67 427 vette my firebird is worth a third as much.what im trying to say is its all relevant to what model vette you are comparing to what model camaro,chevelle ,etc.