Go on autotraderclassics search for 68-72 Vettes,Chevelles, Camaros, GTO's Max price 15k, distance 250 miles and see how many more Corvettes pop up that are in better condition than the others. There are just way more Corvette out there that were taken better care of than muscle cars. Its also easier to find a numbers matching Corvette than a muscle car for a reasonable price.

 

Jay Leno drives all his cars. It's ashame to keep them in museums (especially ones where parts are still available).

 

What you are saying then is that NADA prices are substantially lower than private sales prices. That...will...never...happen... Never never never. NADA will always be higher because dealers of classic cars sell on consignment and take a cut. Also because dealers on average research the market better than the average seller. It is possible that some people may LIST cars above NADA pricing, but those car's that are listed too high are unlikely to sell unless the price comes down.

Plus many of the autotraderclassics.com cars are being sold by dealers - who use NADA guides...

I actually wrote an Excel spreadsheet that does what you are doing on Autotraderclassics.com (and other sites) except that rather than only looking at values and assuming all sales fall close to those values the spreadsheet looks at the average list price and the standard deviation and predicts list prices all the way through the spectrum from the 10th percentile to the 90th percentile. It also, based on public data made available through the University of Michigan, reduces the list price to determine the average sale price. Taking that extra step and analyzing the values publically available online will gave you an accurate look at where the market really is.

The problem with taking an analytical view of the market though is that classic car / corvette buffs are hobbyists who don't like having the value of these cars analyzed. You get a lot of flak if you try. Instead people like to do what you are doing..look at a handful of cars that are on the market and then stick their finger in the air to see how the wind blows. They make values up because they think they intuitively know more than any real analysis can tell them.

The problem with the way most collectors value car's is that it doesn't work. The only way to get an accurate look at the market is to take a random sampling of actual sales prices for a given make/model/option package of car (not list price but actual sales price) and then determine the mean value and the standard deviation. With that information and a bit more math you can piece together the market. The size of the sample you need to reach a given confidence level can be determined mathematically as well - the larger the standard deviation the larger the sample you need.

Since actual sales prices are largely unavailable (and those few you can get are not 'random samplings' from the overall market) the best one can do is to estimate average sale prices by reducing the average list price - and then to use regression analysis and to run their model over and over to check the validity and accuracy of the model.

I've done that and the results track predictably below NADA - by consistent amounts.

NADA is an accurate estimate of what classic cars sell for when sold by dealers, and NADA numbers, while high, track the market closely. If one car is 20% more expensive than another in NADA, it's a safe bet it'll be 20% higher in the market as a whole.

A 69 Camaro costs a fair amount of money - but so does a 69 Corvette. I looked up those values I think on page three of this thread and the 69 Corvette cost more. There may well be years where the Camaro is worth more than the Corvette but 1969 is not one of those years. There might also be years where the Chevelle is worth more than the Corvette, but that was not the case in 1971.

The Corvettes that truly are cheap are the later C3s that were built under smog requirements and that get less power because of it. The muscle cars built in those years suffered the same problems and are also worth much less than muscle car's from earlier years. A 1978 Trans Am is worth more, on average, than a 1978 L82 Corvette, but BOTH the 1978 Trans Am and the 1978 Corvette are worth significantly less than the 1971 Chevelle SS. They are also worth significantly less than the 1971 Corvette.

Pick any year you want and do an actual analysis of the market. You will find that the Corvette is always one of the most valuable American brands out there - and most years it is the most valuable.

I'm not trying to be difficult either. I'm just saying that when people make statements about the relative value of different makes and models of cars - those are statements that can be verified and many of the statements people make are wrong.

It isn't just the Corvette from the mid to late 70s and early 80s that was a great deal. All of the muscle cars from that time period are - right up to the time of the Buick Grand National and Corvette ZR1 when our auto makers figured out how to make horsepower again even with the emmissions requirements...

And just in case anyone wants a prediction... The new mileage requirements are going to put the automakers into another horsepower drought. They might be able to do 50MPG but not with 400 HP...

 

One more thing about NADA.. Even if it didn't track ONLY dealer pricing it would still be worthless for the private buyer or seller. It only gives three values. NADA members get a full breakdown of the market by percentile (10th through 90th). But we get three stinking values... You really NEED the different percentile grades to use the data. Three numbers are not enough.

Because of this (and the lack of non-dealer pricing) NADA is only useful to gauge the relative value of different cars. It is NOT useful as an actual price guide!

Walk into a dealer with a NADA guide and watch him smile. You are showing him that you are fully armed with all the data he wants you to have..and none of the data he doesn't want you to have. Boy will he have a deal for YOU LOL!!!

 

Wow, I can't believe you wrote all of that. If I had that kind of time I wouldn't be able to work on my cars or drive them.

Either way, you are forgetting one huge thing, you cannot take a base model 69 vette and lump it into the same group as a L-88 to get an average value. Even though they are both 69 corvettes they are from a collector car standpoint 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT CARS. This is where your "analysis" is flawed and what everyone is trying to tell you. We aren't debating NADA, we are stating a fact proven everyday in the car buying market, that muscle car era such as Chevelles and Camaros out sell and out price your average 68-72 Corvette which to all of us makes no sense, BUT IT'S HOW IT GOES in the market right now.

A thrown together 69 camaro painted with spray cans a **** interior, and a 350 truck engine will be worth more than 69 non-numbers matching 350 4spd 7 out of 10 scale nice driver Corvette.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE BUT THAT'S THE MARKET. If you still think a corvette as described above is worth more than a 1st gen camaro, please take $15,000 and find the best 350 NOM 68-72 corvette for sale for that money, then go try to see what $15,000 buys you in the first gen camaro world.

I'll help you,

Here's what $15,000 buys in 69 corvettes, pretty nice car for the money that you can take straight to a car show

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-...item4aae16a2c1

Here's what $15,000 buys in 69 Camaros, a base model 69 Camaro PAINTED SHELL, NO MOTOR, NO INTERIOR MISSING A TON of parts
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-...item25672948d0

 

At no point in time on this thread have I mixed sub-models of cars. Every time I've listed prices for a model with sub models, I've listed the sub-models separately. I don't know why you would say I've done anything else.

What you have done is what so many people do - something that is a HUGE mistake. Rather than looking at the market as a whole, you've taken two car's and made the assumption that these two car's - neither of which have actually sold - are representative of the overall market.

They are not.

 

What sells on Ebay is what cars are worth.
So if Ebay sells a 77 L48 for $8500 but NADA says a 77 L48 is worth $23000, 1: are you fine with paying $23000 or 2: would you rather go real world and buy one for what everyone else is paying?
NADA and Those stupid car auction setups have ruined cars for everybody but the rich and stupid.

 

[QUOTE=wgarneau;1578608345] neither of which have actually sold QUOTE]

They both sold for $15K on e-bay - look again. This is actually a real life comparison of where the market is at today. Thats a really nice 69 vette even 350 HP and the camaro is a base car cloned to be a Z28 and no engine, trans, or interior. Its a real shame but reality. Give up on you theoretical NADA discussion because no one is listening. Start gathering actual e-bay sales data and Mecum sales data and then make your conclusions.

 

I can't talk about this anymore....

 

One sale is not a market. The market is the compilation of all sales in a given time period. One sale means nothing.

 

What?

 

I wasn't saying that everyone should go out and modify their Corvettes. I was defending those who choose to do so. What's the big deal about a non-original L48? You can only improve them. Modifying an L82 is a different story. Same for muscle cars which is what we're talking about. A totally original 396 Camaro is better than a modified one. But a modified base model LT is better than a slow old LT. I'm sure there's an original L48 presereved in a GM museum somewhere for the world to remember.

What was the point of your sports car remark? You just questioned my saying the Corvette was not a sports car due to engine size, then argued my way... The MG has a tiny engine and is light and nimble in comparison to the Corvette. It is a sports car. The Corvette is not. Really, it just isn't. Compared to a Caddy it's small and 'sporty,' but that doesn't make it a sports car. GT cars like the Ferrari Daytona, Aston Vantage and Mercedes SL are its rivals. They are GT cars.

The factory braking distance from 60mph for a 1967 Chevelle was 194 feet. A second stop for a '67 Chevelle at 60mph will take you 237 feet (the difference is called brake fade, Google it...). So the drum brakes were NOT adequate for a 3800 pound car... The 1980 Corvettes stopped in 130 feet from 60mph, and Road and Track reported very little brake fade on the track, which I'm sure you can look up for yourself as well as the braking distances for earlier C3s.

Brakes on ALL barn find cars are not to be trusted. It's not a bad idea to fit new brakes to ANY old car in less than good condition.

If YOU knew half of what you preach, you would still not be able to speak English properly...

 

Look at the price of a 79 Trans Am.......170 HP and pulling top prices ...way more dollars than a 79 Vette in similar condition. And all base model C3's after 72 were low in HP.

 

A Corvette is a sports car, look it up on a web search.

 

Why are older Camaros more expensive?
Because 70% of them are rusted away, and only a few survived.
Less offer = higher price.

So im very happy the Vettes have a fiberglass body.
Guess how expensive they would be if the half of them was scraped because of rust.
Then i could not afford an old Corvette.

 

i agree buddy and ill add to the mix that the c3 shape went for 14 years and the 1st gen camaro only 3 and more precise that 69 was unique in many ways. no wonder they demand more bucks.

 

The 78 and 79 Trans Ams are worth more because of the large production numbers for the Corvette and because they were the last two years with the Pontiac 400. The Trans Am also had the same HP and torque ratings as the L48. In 1980 the Corvette was worth more again.

You won't find any legitimate study of the 1969 Camaro and Vette markets where the Camaro is worth more than the Vette either. Unless you cherry-pick. If you cherry-pick sales you can 'prove' whatever you feel like.

 

Trans AMs are popular only because of Smokey and the Bandit.
Television is what makes most cars popular.
I wish the bottom would drop out of vette prices so I could buy about 5 more.

 

I'd say the bottom has dropped out relative to a few years ago. Doubt their going much higher any tme soon.

So far as the steel body classics go, impression I've gotten after taking a peak at vintage Mustangs is they have done better than C3 Corvettes. My old 69 Mach1 appears to fetch better money that most C3s even with a NOM. Back in the day we freely swapped engines if a hotter version was available, another topic.

 

If you did a study similar to what NADA does (using statistics to measure the market) you would definitely get lower values than what NADA gives you. I don't think they'd be lower by a factor of four LOL but they'd be lower. NADA is a booklet of dealer prices and eBay by and large consists of private sales. Also on eBay you generally can't see the car before you buy it so to a large degree you are bidding blind - which creates an unknown for the buyer and adds more variance to the price (generally on the lower side).

I don't think many of us would pay as much for a car on eBay as what we would pay locally through say Craig's List where you can go crawl around the car. Or at a dealership where it may well have had a full inspection and maybe even an appraisal. Generally speaking, the fewer unknowns the buyer has the more the buyer is willing to pay.

At the same time, eBay certainly is a part of the market. As are dealerships. The WHOLE market consists of all of these avenues of sales with differing relative prices.

What you'll find though - and this will be consistently true - is that if 1969 Corvettes average 20% more in NADA than 1969 Camaros, they'll average 20% more in other places too. Including eBay.

The Mustang Mach 1 is a sweet car BTW - one of the best IMHO Ford has ever made.