anyway, the OP's question has not been answered..

a replaced transmission does hurt collectability ( using a common sense definition of collectability)

it does not hurt NCRS judging if the tranny is the same as what the car came with. The judges do not score the tranny numbers, they don't crawl under the car or jack it up to check the tranny. if the car was originally an auto and now has a manual, declared by documentation, then yes it will hurt points, or you can withhold that doc and get the points. there are many parts the ncrs does not judge due to inaccessibility.

it does hurt future resale in that less people will consider the car. those that require that it does will consider the car whereas those that don't care will still come look at the car.

hurting the resale price is an entire different issue in which you will need to pay accordingly for the difference in a car with or without its original transmission. price it correctly up front and it should closely match appreciation rates of a equivalent car with its original transmission. it will sell for less, but you would have paid less for it.

 

Transmission VIN numbers are NOT checked during NCRS "Flight" judging as the standard is an original appearance. (Not put on a lift)

Transmission VIN numbers ARE checked during NCRS "Bowtie" judging as the standard is the original parts. (Put on a lift)


There were 390 1969 L-89s built. A L-89 is very desirable in the market ($$$), and therefore the incentive to counterfeit one is great. A counterfeit car will go nowhere in NCRS judging. So, if you are considering NCRS judging as an important part of your decision to purchase, then a CAREFUL examination of the car and its documentation is in order.

The link below has information about NCRS judging awards and a discussion of what constitutes a counterfeit car.

http://www.ncrs.org/awards.html

 

What do u guys think a car like this is valued at?

 

False. The engine suffix will not match correctly with the transmission type- a dead give away and nobody has to even look underneath the car....................

 

True. It shows engine type, tranny type and aluminum head car even

 

Agreed...

NCRS Does not judge if a car is counterfeit or not.. counterfeited 'flight' cars are everywhere... do not think a NCRS award means your car is the real deal. of course now we get into the definition of 'counterfeit'.

 

VIN and trim tags excepted.

http://classiccarcollectornews.com/b...oration-fraud/

 

NCRS does judge if a car is counterfeit.

Discovery of a counterfeit car subjects the owner to disqualification and the car is entered into the database as counterfeit.

The definition of counterfeit cars is in the link below along with an overview discussion of counterfeit vs restoration.

An NCRS award does not mean a car is the real deal - it is a document of what a car was like on a particular day. Changes can happen once it drives off the judging field.

http://www.ncrs.org/awards.html

 

In reading some of the NCRS information given by Mr. Mapman, it does not appear the NCRS gives a particular amount of credit to the fact that the transmission is original to the car...rather that it COULD BE original to the car. It isn't a '73 transmission in a '70 car or vice-versa.

I would think that the "value" of a "numbers matching" car is in the fact that it greatly increases the chances that the vehicle is an unmolested example. You don't need to go out and find an M21 transmission that is date coded late 1969 for it to mate up with the potential for it to be incorporated into your January 29th 1970 corvette. I couldn't imagine the PITA it would be to find, not only that transmission in great shape, but one built within a 3 month window-of-plausibility for it to 'date code' in my car.

A car could be a numbers matching piece of crap and that doesn't mean much of anything unless you intend to make a top-flight car out of it. And numbers matching doesn't mean anything to THAT process but for the fact that you don't have to scrape around and pay out your ear for the right date of parts.

So to the OP, I guess your question has been answered. If the transmission is "correct", then it doesn't really matter much. If your transmission has a plausible date code, then you're probably good-to-go.

I guess others would disagree, though. But that's what I'm reading...

 

NCRS says:

"Discovery of counterfeits (see Judging Reference Manual; section 2 Item 1) may subject owner to disqualification. In some cases, it might be in the best interest of the owner to withdraw his car from judging (see Judging Reference Manual; section 4 Item 12 Altered cars)."

 

The tranny isn't numbers matching to VIN and engine but it is a vin that dates to a 69 tranny.

 

Again, to plausibility.

My car, for example, has a VIN indicating it was assembled on January 29th, 1970. If I wanted to have it judged, I would expect a 'ding' in the scoring if my transmission was date coded October 1970. Likewise if the transmission was dated February of 1969, 11 months prior. Not impossible, in that case, but unlikely.

My point is, having the right year isn't necesarilly enough. The purpose of the judging is to have the car be as showroom perfect as it possibly could be. Unless there was a time-space wormhole involved, there's a little hiccup in the showroom perfection if the date codes don't work out.

If you took one look at my car, it would be VERY obvious to you that I'm not one for judging. I like my driver.

I just wanted to contribute in a way that perhaps took a different angle to your question. Whether you use the term "all original" or "numbers matching", the differences only lie in what you intend to do with the car.

A story:

I have a friend with an NRCS judged top-flight 1968 big block convertible. He told me about his whole experience and how amazing it was.

During the judging, it was noted that one of his interior door pulls was incorrect. Apparently there was a very slight difference in the way the pulls were cast in that one was smooth on the inside (where your fingers hit the metal) and the other had a casting ridge. One was correct to his early 1968 and the other was correct to a LATE 1968. Or something like that.

Suffice it to say that the thing broke sometime in the past 45 years and was replaced.

Is the car no longer "numbers matching"? Is it no longer "all original"? Dunno. It's was a darn nice car, though.

It's all in the eye of the beholder, to me. Given a fairly infinite amount of resources, I could build a "numbers matching" 100 point perfect car that is date correct and perfect in every way. There isn't ANYTHING "original" about it since it is just a collection of parts. And there is nothing wrong with doing so AS LONG AS I don't change the car from what the foundation car's frame/VIN number originally was.

 

Agreed.


With respect to the OP question on value if the car had an auto and it has an auto - then for the most part the value is intact - provided its a reasonable replacement.

 

I judge the trans. (I'm thin)

 

What's the seller asking?

I'm a little confused. Your first post says the car is top flight. If you know about Top Flight, you will also know about replacement transmissions and the potential value of this car. You will also know the value of documentation.

Have you seen the car?

 

OK, now I'm up to 16 definitions.

 

[QUOTE
Originally Posted by keithinspace
Given a fairly infinite amount of resources, I could build a "numbers matching" 100 point perfect car that is date correct and perfect in every way. There isn't ANYTHING "original" about it since it is just a collection of parts. And there is nothing wrong with doing so AS LONG AS I don't change the car from what the foundation car's frame/VIN number originally was.
[/QUOTE]

Hypothetically perhaps -- but in actuality, the cost, condition and originality of the individual and collective parts would then come into play. And even then, you would only be fooling yourself into a false sense of accomplishment.

The original question of value regarding the transmission has multiple correct answers -- depending upon the intended use of the vehicle.

Personal use vs Judged use vs resale use vs whatever.

 

[/QUOTE]

Will be a garage queen for judging and investment/resale

 

It is a top flight but I'm not that familiar with NCRS rules. Im not that familiar with replacement transmissions and car value. Have not physically seen car yet but every date code is in order and has old pics n owner documentation etc.

 

Sez who?

Top Flight is an NCRS award. Go here: http://www.ncrs.org/

My advice would be to take someone with you when you go. Leave your checkbook at home the first time. Consider having the car appraised.

No disrespect Zeus, but if you do not honestly know what you will be looking at when you see the car or what you will be looking for, you could make a very expensive mistake.