Numbers matching?
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Brentwood Tennessee
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Sez who?
Top Flight is an NCRS award. Go here: http://www.ncrs.org/
My advice would be to take someone with you when you go. Leave your checkbook at home the first time. Consider having the car appraised.
No disrespect Zeus, but if you do not honestly know what you will be looking at when you see the car or what you will be looking for, you could make a very expensive mistake.
Top Flight is an NCRS award. Go here: http://www.ncrs.org/
My advice would be to take someone with you when you go. Leave your checkbook at home the first time. Consider having the car appraised.
No disrespect Zeus, but if you do not honestly know what you will be looking at when you see the car or what you will be looking for, you could make a very expensive mistake.
What do you suggest I look for when I look at car? Thanks!
Melting Slicks
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2024 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
Zeus
I just looked at 2012 Mecum Auction results for '69 vettes. Saw where a white L89 4 spd coupe with side exhaust drew a high bid of $80k, no sale. Said it was Top Flight 97.7 and had a tank sticker. No mention of "matching" anything. 1500 hour restoration from a "survivor."
Saw where a green L89 4 spd convertible drew a high bid of $50k, no sale. Said it was a "matching numbers drivetrain."
NADA says...who cares?
NCRS awards are given after a brief (aka incomplete) inspection by volunteers. NCRS local and regional meets rarely use a hoist or even ramps. Some know a lot, some know very little. Their intentions are surely noble.
If you are going to buy a car for a trailer queen, judging, shows, investment, capital gain on resale...I suggest you buy a well-documented car with a known pedigree/history and numerous inspections...the most recent by a very knowledgeable person that is on your team...somebody that can also give you an accurate estimate of current market value. If you found what appears to be a bargain and are thinking that you are going to make a bundle on it someday...good luck.
I just looked at 2012 Mecum Auction results for '69 vettes. Saw where a white L89 4 spd coupe with side exhaust drew a high bid of $80k, no sale. Said it was Top Flight 97.7 and had a tank sticker. No mention of "matching" anything. 1500 hour restoration from a "survivor."
Saw where a green L89 4 spd convertible drew a high bid of $50k, no sale. Said it was a "matching numbers drivetrain."
NADA says...who cares?
NCRS awards are given after a brief (aka incomplete) inspection by volunteers. NCRS local and regional meets rarely use a hoist or even ramps. Some know a lot, some know very little. Their intentions are surely noble.
If you are going to buy a car for a trailer queen, judging, shows, investment, capital gain on resale...I suggest you buy a well-documented car with a known pedigree/history and numerous inspections...the most recent by a very knowledgeable person that is on your team...somebody that can also give you an accurate estimate of current market value. If you found what appears to be a bargain and are thinking that you are going to make a bundle on it someday...good luck.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
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From: Brentwood Tennessee
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Using an NCRS award as a certificate of authenticity, completeness, originality, virginity, etc. is foolish indeed.
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Melting Slicks
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From: Brentwood Tennessee
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So I found the 69 L89 I was looking at sold at mecum for 40k and this dealer is asking 79k soo I think I will hold off on the trade with him and keep on looking! I still have my LT1 for sale if anyone is in the market.
Team Owner
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From: In limbo
St. Jude Donor '13-'15, '17 thru '22
When people say "numbers matching", surprisingly enough, I think about numbers matching each other. There are 4 pieces of our cars with VIN derivatives on them linking them to a specific car that left the production line. Not surprisingly, these are the frame, body, engine block, and transmission case. As such, someone saying a car is "numbers matching" SHOULD mean IMO, that when that frame left St. Louis (or KY depending on your year), it had the body on it that is now on it, the engine block that is now in it, and the transmission case that is now in it.
Of course, despite the elegance of the above, it still doesn't really mean anything in terms of "originality" nor is it necessarily an indicator that the car was not abused during its life.
Of course, despite the elegance of the above, it still doesn't really mean anything in terms of "originality" nor is it necessarily an indicator that the car was not abused during its life.
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Team Owner
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From: Crossville TN
If you were to analyze all the NCRS Top Flight award winners, I wonder what percentage of those cars would have all 'original' parts on them [not including 'expendable' wear parts]? My guess would be ZERO. But, that's just a guess.... 
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Wichita KS
As you surmise, unrestored original "Top Flight" cars are indeed rare.
NCRS is the "Corvette RESTORERS Society". The standard for "Top Flight" is the APPEARANCE of what the car looked like when it left the factory with typical dealer prep. In general, the older the car the less likely it will have it's original parts. So, I would agree with you that the vast majority of "Top Flight" cars have been restored, and hence, are not likely to have all their original parts.
"BOWTIE" judging, on the other hand, specifically recognizes the un-restored Corvette so the standard is the actual unrestored ORIGINAL parts that came on the car. BOWTIE cars are few, relative to total Corvettes. Cars that are both "Top Flight" AND "Bowtie" are rare indeed.
The link below has some brief explanations as to what the NCRS awards are:
http://www.ncrs.org/awards.html
Last edited by mapman; Aug 3, 2012 at 03:33 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2010
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From: West Chester Pennsylvania
May be some confusion about a "Top Flight" award versus a "Bowtie" award.
As you surmise, unrestored original "Top Flight" cars are indeed rare.
NCRS is the "Corvette RESTORERS Society". The standard for "Top Flight" is the APPEARANCE of what the car looked like when it left the factory with typical dealer prep. In general, the older the car the less likely it will have it's original parts. So, I would agree with you that the vast majority of "Top Flight" cars have been restored, and hence, are not likely to have all their original parts.
"BOWTIE" judging, on the other hand, specifically recognizes the un-restored Corvette so the standard is the actual unrestored ORIGINAL parts that came on the car. BOWTIE cars are few, relative to total Corvettes. Cars that are both "Top Flight" AND "Bowtie" are rare indeed.
The link below has some brief explanations as to what the NCRS awards are:
http://www.ncrs.org/awards.html
As you surmise, unrestored original "Top Flight" cars are indeed rare.
NCRS is the "Corvette RESTORERS Society". The standard for "Top Flight" is the APPEARANCE of what the car looked like when it left the factory with typical dealer prep. In general, the older the car the less likely it will have it's original parts. So, I would agree with you that the vast majority of "Top Flight" cars have been restored, and hence, are not likely to have all their original parts.
"BOWTIE" judging, on the other hand, specifically recognizes the un-restored Corvette so the standard is the actual unrestored ORIGINAL parts that came on the car. BOWTIE cars are few, relative to total Corvettes. Cars that are both "Top Flight" AND "Bowtie" are rare indeed.
The link below has some brief explanations as to what the NCRS awards are:
http://www.ncrs.org/awards.html
RESTORATION.. with respect to older Corvettes that are going to be judged, they need to be restored with an eye towards two key elements.
Originality AND Condition. Restoring a car with new REPRODUCTION parts is not something that will win you top awards with respect to NCRS. That's why they have judging guides... to help evaluate ORIGINALITY (as in the description of the ORIGINAL STYLE parts that came with the car. For example, if you replace the alternator with the correct model, with correct date code, fit and finish then that RESTORATION is as good as what was there new. Even if that part is not original to that car, it is original to what would have been installed in that car and then condition is evaluated towards what it would have looked like at delivery.
So.. knowing that to achieve top flight you need to have things 94% buttoned up and validated, I would say that all top flights do have Original style parts in excellent condition. They would have to achieve that level of recognition.
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From: On Land
Team Owner
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From: Westminster Maryland
Hi,
Just to add to Mapman's post.
Cars that have been brought to the NCRS National Convention for Bowtie Judging DO get put up on a lift for a time during judging.
Regards,
Alan
The lift offers an opportunity to look over some other "interesting" cars at the Convention.
Just to add to Mapman's post.
Cars that have been brought to the NCRS National Convention for Bowtie Judging DO get put up on a lift for a time during judging.
Regards,
Alan
The lift offers an opportunity to look over some other "interesting" cars at the Convention.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: cary Il
number matching means the items that have a vin# on them, frame, body windshield post, engine, tranny. and thats it, all other items might be correct, but dont add or subtract to the #s game.