1969 Engine Stamp Pad Question
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 12,687
Likes: 3,139
From: Shamong, NJ
I was thinking that they switched to the expansion tank in 70, when they went from the 427 to the 454.
It was after 11 pm when I was typing that, and I was falling asleep. That's the excuse I'm going with anyway!
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Hi All,
I agree dealing with dealers can get annoying, given that they probably paid bottom dollar for the car, and are trying to sell it off at top price, but that's how they make a crust I guess.
The dealer has come back to me with the following:
Vacuum system works
Fiber optic working at this time
Clock not operational
I will be able to have underside photos to you by Friday
I do have the procto plate and a lot of receipts
As for the numbers:
Assembly Nov 17th 1969
Vin Sequence date OCt 69
Windshield NOM
RR glass Aug 69
Dr glass Mar 70
PS glass Nov 69
Casting date Aug 30th 1969
Stamp pad Oct 3rd 69
Intake casting 3947801 Correct
Car casting 7041232 NOM
Engine casting 3963512 Correct
Alternator NOM
Transmission restamp NOM
Rear end Illegible unknown
NOM = Non original Material
So I guess it appears the engine block and chassis match, with some engine parts that don't (carby, alternator, no smog, brake master cylinder). The tranny and rear end are a no match.
Will see what the underside photos tell us when they come through...
Again, thanks go out to all that have assisted thus far!
John.
I agree dealing with dealers can get annoying, given that they probably paid bottom dollar for the car, and are trying to sell it off at top price, but that's how they make a crust I guess.
The dealer has come back to me with the following:
Vacuum system works
Fiber optic working at this time
Clock not operational
I will be able to have underside photos to you by Friday
I do have the procto plate and a lot of receipts
As for the numbers:
Assembly Nov 17th 1969
Vin Sequence date OCt 69
Windshield NOM
RR glass Aug 69
Dr glass Mar 70
PS glass Nov 69
Casting date Aug 30th 1969
Stamp pad Oct 3rd 69
Intake casting 3947801 Correct
Car casting 7041232 NOM
Engine casting 3963512 Correct
Alternator NOM
Transmission restamp NOM
Rear end Illegible unknown
NOM = Non original Material
So I guess it appears the engine block and chassis match, with some engine parts that don't (carby, alternator, no smog, brake master cylinder). The tranny and rear end are a no match.
Will see what the underside photos tell us when they come through...
Again, thanks go out to all that have assisted thus far!
John.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 31,301
Likes: 4,389
From: Westminster Maryland
Hi John,
I think you need to disregard everything the dealer has written. He's only trying to sell the car. Look at the pictures. Remember that cosmetically it looks better in these pictures than it will in real life.
If the car you see in the pictures is of interest to you, you need pay to have someone very knowledgeable about 69, big block, side-pipe, cars look at it.
The car will tell it's own story, and the individual can tell you what he sees, and advise you about it's value.
For me there are 2 big issues... is this the engine this car left St.Louis with, and is this a real N14 car. Both those things have a BIG effect on it's value.
Regards,
Alan
I think you need to disregard everything the dealer has written. He's only trying to sell the car. Look at the pictures. Remember that cosmetically it looks better in these pictures than it will in real life.
If the car you see in the pictures is of interest to you, you need pay to have someone very knowledgeable about 69, big block, side-pipe, cars look at it.
The car will tell it's own story, and the individual can tell you what he sees, and advise you about it's value.
For me there are 2 big issues... is this the engine this car left St.Louis with, and is this a real N14 car. Both those things have a BIG effect on it's value.
Regards,
Alan
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 38,923
Likes: 1,482
From: Southbound
Cruise-In II Veteran
October 17, 1969. #32760 was assembled in October. The October date is consistent with an engine assembled on October 3.
69 production got underway in August, 1968 (A). No cars were produced in May, 1969 due to the stirke (J).
It appears the dealer did not specifically say the engine is original.
69 production got underway in August, 1968 (A). No cars were produced in May, 1969 due to the stirke (J).
It appears the dealer did not specifically say the engine is original.
Last edited by Easy Mike; Jan 9, 2013 at 04:43 PM.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Hi John,
I think you need to disregard everything the dealer has written. He's only trying to sell the car. Look at the pictures. Remember that cosmetically it looks better in these pictures than it will in real life.
If the car you see in the pictures is of interest to you, you need pay to have someone very knowledgeable about 69, big block, side-pipe, cars look at it.
The car will tell it's own story, and the individual can tell you what he sees, and advise you about it's value.
For me there are 2 big issues... is this the engine this car left St.Louis with, and is this a real N14 car. Both those things have a BIG effect on it's value.
Regards,
Alan
I think you need to disregard everything the dealer has written. He's only trying to sell the car. Look at the pictures. Remember that cosmetically it looks better in these pictures than it will in real life.
If the car you see in the pictures is of interest to you, you need pay to have someone very knowledgeable about 69, big block, side-pipe, cars look at it.
The car will tell it's own story, and the individual can tell you what he sees, and advise you about it's value.
For me there are 2 big issues... is this the engine this car left St.Louis with, and is this a real N14 car. Both those things have a BIG effect on it's value.
Regards,
Alan
I agree. Once the underside pics come through I will see how it looks, and see if you can tell from those pics if it was a factory N14. If those photos look good I will start hunting for an expert, maybe an NCRS person if possible, to check it out.
If the underside photos look good, my next post here will be looking for an expert in the area...
Cheers,
John.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
As I understand it, it means simply that the numbers on the block match the numbers on the chassis. I appreciate that blocks are often decked and re-stamped, and that to confirm that the numbers on the engine are original and therefore that the engine is original to the vehicle is to:
1 Check the tank sticker (if there) and POP to see if the numbers are right; and
2 Have an expert check out the stamp pad (broach marks, etc), maybe even some sort of acid test to see if the stamp pad has been decked and restamped.
My understanding is also that a professionally decked and restamped block is very difficult to pick, so 'numbers matching' is as good as most people will get, save for paying a fair bit to get the stamp pad acid tested. My thoughts are that, save some obvious error in restamping or clear damage or alteration to the stamp pad, confirming original engine is very difficult and 'numbers matching' is as good as most people will ever get...
Is that right?
Happy to be schooled on this!
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Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,438
Likes: 41
From: Raleigh NC
St. Jude Donor '13-'14
In 2009 a fathom green/green interior 427/390HP, 4 speed w/ sidepipes was on craigslist in Atlanta for $17,000. I had called the owner, but it had been sold. I would frequent buyavette.net's showroom frequently as my own personal car show, whenever I wanted. There was the corvette, recently acquired in the showroom, with a mid-30s price tag on it. I believe they pulled the car off sale block because of some issues - the interior was being torn apart, seats were out. There may have been other issues. Last time I went there, about 2011, the car was still there, but with a "sold" sticker on it.
I'm curious if this is the same car. That is the only green/green, 427/390HP, 4 speed with sidepipes I've ever seen. This could be #2, they are a large volume dealer.
I think it's worth asking the question, what is buyavette.net's history with this car?
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Have you asked the dealer if they have specifically performed any work to this car?
In 2009 a fathom green/green interior 427/390HP, 4 speed w/ sidepipes was on craigslist in Atlanta for $17,000. I had called the owner, but it had been sold. I would frequent buyavette.net's showroom frequently as my own personal car show, whenever I wanted. There was the corvette, recently acquired in the showroom, with a mid-30s price tag on it. I believe they pulled the car off sale block because of some issues - the interior was being torn apart, seats were out. There may have been other issues. Last time I went there, about 2011, the car was still there, but with a "sold" sticker on it.
I'm curious if this is the same car. That is the only green/green, 427/390HP, 4 speed with sidepipes I've ever seen. This could be #2, they are a large volume dealer.
I think it's worth asking the question, what is buyavette.net's history with this car?
In 2009 a fathom green/green interior 427/390HP, 4 speed w/ sidepipes was on craigslist in Atlanta for $17,000. I had called the owner, but it had been sold. I would frequent buyavette.net's showroom frequently as my own personal car show, whenever I wanted. There was the corvette, recently acquired in the showroom, with a mid-30s price tag on it. I believe they pulled the car off sale block because of some issues - the interior was being torn apart, seats were out. There may have been other issues. Last time I went there, about 2011, the car was still there, but with a "sold" sticker on it.
I'm curious if this is the same car. That is the only green/green, 427/390HP, 4 speed with sidepipes I've ever seen. This could be #2, they are a large volume dealer.
I think it's worth asking the question, what is buyavette.net's history with this car?
Thanks Pete. I've just sent him an email asking for the history!
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Hi Mike,
As I understand it, it means simply that the numbers on the block match the numbers on the chassis. I appreciate that blocks are often decked and re-stamped, and that to confirm that the numbers on the engine are original and therefore that the engine is original to the vehicle is to:
1 Check the tank sticker (if there) and POP to see if the numbers are right; and
2 Have an expert check out the stamp pad (broach marks, etc), maybe even some sort of acid test to see if the stamp pad has been decked and restamped.
My understanding is also that a professionally decked and restamped block is very difficult to pick, so 'numbers matching' is as good as most people will get, save for paying a fair bit to get the stamp pad acid tested. My thoughts are that, save some obvious error in restamping or clear damage or alteration to the stamp pad, confirming original engine is very difficult and 'numbers matching' is as good as most people will ever get...
Is that right?
Happy to be schooled on this!
As I understand it, it means simply that the numbers on the block match the numbers on the chassis. I appreciate that blocks are often decked and re-stamped, and that to confirm that the numbers on the engine are original and therefore that the engine is original to the vehicle is to:
1 Check the tank sticker (if there) and POP to see if the numbers are right; and
2 Have an expert check out the stamp pad (broach marks, etc), maybe even some sort of acid test to see if the stamp pad has been decked and restamped.
My understanding is also that a professionally decked and restamped block is very difficult to pick, so 'numbers matching' is as good as most people will get, save for paying a fair bit to get the stamp pad acid tested. My thoughts are that, save some obvious error in restamping or clear damage or alteration to the stamp pad, confirming original engine is very difficult and 'numbers matching' is as good as most people will ever get...
Is that right?
Happy to be schooled on this!
Many people think that 'matching numbers' always means 'original factory installed' or 'born with' engine. It used to mean that, but no longer. Many buyers will pay a premium for an original engine car, so the temptation to create a counterfeit or clone is there. The temptation rises in accordance with the rarity and value of the engine option. It used to be that NOBODY would bother faking a base engine small block automatic, but no longer. Everything is being faked.
Just because the engine pad numbers are correct and 'match', it doesn't mean that this is the actual engine block the car was born with or even that the car was originally built with the particular engine option. Small block to big block conversions are quite common.
Average quality restamps and some amateurish counterfeits are easy to pick out through photos, but there's a shocking number of top quality fakes out there that have fooled many many people.
If it were me, I'd either go for a NOM car at less money than take a chance at a 'maybe' original big block engine car, especially if was thousands of KMs away.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,458
Likes: 331
From: Indy Indiana
1. There are lawyers out there that will represent you and win in a case where one might argue that when you advertise matching numbers.. it means that you are guaranteeing that it is the original engine. sure the knowledgeable people know it means nothing, but the novice perceives that it means original engine.
2. A POP and Tank Sticker do nothing to prove original engine..
3. if I am a seller, no buyer is ever gonna pour acid on my stamp pad..
4. a stamp pad may be blanked/decked/wrong/restamped and still be the original engine. just because it is a restamp, that does not mean that the engine is not original.
2. A POP and Tank Sticker do nothing to prove original engine..
3. if I am a seller, no buyer is ever gonna pour acid on my stamp pad..
4. a stamp pad may be blanked/decked/wrong/restamped and still be the original engine. just because it is a restamp, that does not mean that the engine is not original.