What value does a matching #s tranny have?
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Fort Wayne Indiana
What value does a matching #s tranny have?
I bought a 1973 all original numbers matching driver project. Right away I knew the TH400 needed work so I took it to a shop.
They informed me that it was pretty bad and needed rebuilt, which I believe it did. Well they never informed me that they where going to put in a rebuilt unit instead of rebuilding the original.
So, does not having the original hurt the value or not in respects of the transmission?
If so, what type of advice do you guys recommend on how to deal with the shop?
Thanks again.
They informed me that it was pretty bad and needed rebuilt, which I believe it did. Well they never informed me that they where going to put in a rebuilt unit instead of rebuilding the original.
So, does not having the original hurt the value or not in respects of the transmission?
If so, what type of advice do you guys recommend on how to deal with the shop?
Thanks again.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
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From: Crossville TN
Unless you have some special vehicle that has been or is being judged for originality, having the tranny that was shipped in the vehicle is not that big a deal. Most folks mouth the 'matching numbers' thing...but don't really understand it. And, when they are looking at a driver car, those folks will only check the engine block numbers.
If the car was pristine with Top Flight award credentials, not having the original transmission would be VERY costly when next sold. I wouldn't worry much about it.
P.S. Most trans rebuilders will swap a defective unit with an appropriate unit that has already been rebuilt as a matter of convenience and faster turn-around time for the customer. If someone wanted to have their transmission rebuilt, they would merely need that to be known by the rebuilder. It would take a bit longer, but the main case and all reusable parts would be the same and have the same identifying numbers on it.
If the car was pristine with Top Flight award credentials, not having the original transmission would be VERY costly when next sold. I wouldn't worry much about it.
P.S. Most trans rebuilders will swap a defective unit with an appropriate unit that has already been rebuilt as a matter of convenience and faster turn-around time for the customer. If someone wanted to have their transmission rebuilt, they would merely need that to be known by the rebuilder. It would take a bit longer, but the main case and all reusable parts would be the same and have the same identifying numbers on it.
Race Director
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Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Indy Indiana
original tranny is of incremental importance.. hard to say.. if the original engine increases the value of a car 25%, than I would expect original tranny would increase the value 10-15%.. just ballpark figures.
if you can claim original tranny at sale time, the purists will pay more for the car..
I would ask the shop to get you your original back.. since it is in essence, just a core charge. I doubt you will get them to find your old one, rebuild it, and swap it out again... for free.. unless your contract with them stated rebuild original.
plus a lot of the transmission shops don't even know how to rebuild a tranny, they just get a replacement and bolt it in. I am sure that is what happened to you.
if you can claim original tranny at sale time, the purists will pay more for the car..
I would ask the shop to get you your original back.. since it is in essence, just a core charge. I doubt you will get them to find your old one, rebuild it, and swap it out again... for free.. unless your contract with them stated rebuild original.
plus a lot of the transmission shops don't even know how to rebuild a tranny, they just get a replacement and bolt it in. I am sure that is what happened to you.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Westminster Maryland
Hi k56,
I think that that although transmission stamped information isn't GENERALLY checked during Flight Judging, having the same transmission in place as the the car left St.Louis with, adds to the value of the car.
If I were considering buying a car it would CERTAINLY be one of the first few things I would check for stamped information.
But then again, I also believe 'matching numbers' goes FAR beyond the engine and the vin tag.
Regards,
Alan
I think that that although transmission stamped information isn't GENERALLY checked during Flight Judging, having the same transmission in place as the the car left St.Louis with, adds to the value of the car.
If I were considering buying a car it would CERTAINLY be one of the first few things I would check for stamped information.
But then again, I also believe 'matching numbers' goes FAR beyond the engine and the vin tag.
Regards,
Alan
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2000
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From: Southbound
Cruise-In II Veteran
...Most folks mouth the 'matching numbers' thing...but don't really understand it...
I would.
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Melting Slicks
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From: Bowtie, Pennsyltucky
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15,'21
Safety Car
Joined: May 2008
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From: Lafayette Louisiana
I agree, the engine and transmission and frame are all stamped with the vin. IMHO, all of these add value and can not be legitimately replaced. Date correct carb, intake, alternator ect can be replaced, but you only have the original engine and trans once.
Particularly if the trans shop lead you to believe your original would be rebuilt. If it would be me, I would go get my original trans back even if I had to pay the core charges.
I would bet that you paid extra in the marketplace for "all matching numbers"
And finally, I would guess NCRS would like to check the trans vin stamp, but they do not jack up nor particularly crawl completely under the Corvette???
Particularly if the trans shop lead you to believe your original would be rebuilt. If it would be me, I would go get my original trans back even if I had to pay the core charges.
I would bet that you paid extra in the marketplace for "all matching numbers"
And finally, I would guess NCRS would like to check the trans vin stamp, but they do not jack up nor particularly crawl completely under the Corvette???
Last edited by 20mercury; Mar 15, 2013 at 09:43 AM.
Race Director
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Most of the people that have a chip on their shoulder about the NCRS don't have a clue about the judging and just make a bunch of assumptions instead of leaning.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Crossville TN
The only 'chip on the shoulder' talk I'm hearing in this thread is FROM the NCRS folks.
I'll state it again: MOST C3 folks don't know and/or don't care if their the transmission that came with their car is there or not...they never looked to find the ID plate to check it. That is a true statement whether you like it or not.
The folks who care about all the component numbers matching will check them out and will probably not buy a car that does not have original components. But, that is a relatively small segment of the entire population of C3 owners.
If you aren't looking at a 'pristine' car, nor paying a premium price for a car claiming to be original, transmission function is much more important than "matching numbers" on an I.D. plate that most folks never see.
I'll state it again: MOST C3 folks don't know and/or don't care if their the transmission that came with their car is there or not...they never looked to find the ID plate to check it. That is a true statement whether you like it or not.
The folks who care about all the component numbers matching will check them out and will probably not buy a car that does not have original components. But, that is a relatively small segment of the entire population of C3 owners.
If you aren't looking at a 'pristine' car, nor paying a premium price for a car claiming to be original, transmission function is much more important than "matching numbers" on an I.D. plate that most folks never see.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Westminster Maryland
Hi,
I believe that the thought behind not having the transmission numbers as a Chassis Section line item is that for many judges they're difficult to see unless the car is jacked up a bit. That of course could be a dangerous situation magnified many times over by the number of cars to be Flight Judged.
With BowTie Judging the situation is a bit different. BowTie cars are only judged at National Conventions and for many years 4-post lifts have been set up so the chassis can be both examined and judged more rigorously.
Some of the BowTie cars also go back on the lifts to be used as teaching tools in Advanced Judging Seminars.
The NCRS does some wacky things, but it also puts a lot of thought and energy into judging Corvettes.
Regards,
Alan
Imagine getting ALL these cars on a lift, bearing in mind that since they are inside they must ALL be pushed to and from the lifts!
I believe that the thought behind not having the transmission numbers as a Chassis Section line item is that for many judges they're difficult to see unless the car is jacked up a bit. That of course could be a dangerous situation magnified many times over by the number of cars to be Flight Judged.
With BowTie Judging the situation is a bit different. BowTie cars are only judged at National Conventions and for many years 4-post lifts have been set up so the chassis can be both examined and judged more rigorously.
Some of the BowTie cars also go back on the lifts to be used as teaching tools in Advanced Judging Seminars.
The NCRS does some wacky things, but it also puts a lot of thought and energy into judging Corvettes.
Regards,
Alan
Imagine getting ALL these cars on a lift, bearing in mind that since they are inside they must ALL be pushed to and from the lifts!
not to mention that not all judging meets are held indoors or on a paved or hard surface. Jacking a car up on soft grass is not a good idea.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Indy Indiana
Many, many, C3 owners are not going to get their car judged and the judging issues are not what they are concerned about.. I am one of them..
but what we are concerned about is what to pay for a car with original components and what to sell our cars for.. or what they will bring in the market.
This is far more important on most people's minds than judging points... yes judging points help, but a NOM or tranny is not as big as a hit come judging time as the effect on the price of your car come selling time, or when you are looking to buy.
a non original tranny causes a loss of value.. the OP has been financially damaged by the tranny shop and he needs to chase them down to recover that loss.
but what we are concerned about is what to pay for a car with original components and what to sell our cars for.. or what they will bring in the market.
This is far more important on most people's minds than judging points... yes judging points help, but a NOM or tranny is not as big as a hit come judging time as the effect on the price of your car come selling time, or when you are looking to buy.
a non original tranny causes a loss of value.. the OP has been financially damaged by the tranny shop and he needs to chase them down to recover that loss.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Bowtie, Pennsyltucky
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15,'21
NCRS does not use the silly 'numbers matching' terminology for many different reasons. As a shock to most, it also doesn't authenticate or certify that a car has it's original engine, or any other component for that matter. There's dozens if not hundreds of details that are not checked during Flight Judging, primarily due to time or access constraints.
Most of the people that have a chip on their shoulder about the NCRS don't have a clue about the judging and just make a bunch of assumptions instead of leaning.
Most of the people that have a chip on their shoulder about the NCRS don't have a clue about the judging and just make a bunch of assumptions instead of leaning.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
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