Question About Selling
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 557
Likes: 15
From: Royal Oak Michigan
Question About Selling
I have a philosophical question for the board. When selling a vehicle how much of the onus falls on the seller to disclose the condition, and how much falls to the buyer to adequately inspect the car? I’m not asking if it’s OK to lie, because obviously it would never be OK to flat out lie about a cars condition, but how far does the seller have to go?
Case in point is my 73. It’s certainly not perfect. There is frame rust near the rear of the driver’s door. I would certainly disclose that in an add, but I also am no expert, so I really can’t say whether it’s total cancer, or not a real big deal. Also I have had the kick panels and the window trim out during my interior restoration, but most casual buyers (and sellers for that matter) probably could not or would not check those areas.
I guess I’d just like some opinions on how much responsibility falls on the buyer to know what they are looking at.
Also, so I don’t get put on any watch lists I am not planning to sell my 73 at this point.
Case in point is my 73. It’s certainly not perfect. There is frame rust near the rear of the driver’s door. I would certainly disclose that in an add, but I also am no expert, so I really can’t say whether it’s total cancer, or not a real big deal. Also I have had the kick panels and the window trim out during my interior restoration, but most casual buyers (and sellers for that matter) probably could not or would not check those areas.
I guess I’d just like some opinions on how much responsibility falls on the buyer to know what they are looking at.
Also, so I don’t get put on any watch lists I am not planning to sell my 73 at this point.
Last edited by Crafty12; Aug 29, 2013 at 01:02 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
The buyer is ultimately responsible for inspecting the car. As long as you don't misrepresent the car (lie) you are in the clear.
A Five Diamond seller would dislose EVERYTHING they know about the car though.
A Five Diamond seller would dislose EVERYTHING they know about the car though.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 557
Likes: 15
From: Royal Oak Michigan
"To the best of my knowledge the frame and birdcage are solid".
Any time I see that I automatically assume it to mean "I know there are issues, so I didn't look." What do they call that? Plausible deniability
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
It's funny you say that, because I see this phrase alot in the for sale section.
"To the best of my knowledge the frame and birdcage are solid".
Any time I see that I automatically assume it to mean "I know there are issues, so I didn't look." What do they call that? Plausible deniability
"To the best of my knowledge the frame and birdcage are solid".
Any time I see that I automatically assume it to mean "I know there are issues, so I didn't look." What do they call that? Plausible deniability
Buyer Beware!
Safety Car
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,747
Likes: 713
From: Lafayette Louisiana
Imho,.....
IMHO, as a seller you disclose everything you know fair and square.
Case in point, if you do ebay, and if you are always fair and square, and disclose all you know, you have a very high probability of getting very high feedback 100% or 99% over a large number of transactions. In other words, you do transactions for the long haul and the next transaction and not for the one time deal.
So, when I buy from someone on ebay, I want to buy from somebody with a high rating and I want a high rating for myself too when I sell something.
Having said that, the buyer is always responsible for checking out the purchase to his satisfaction. I see some rust and say, no big deal, others might say no way, hosa.
Case in point, if you do ebay, and if you are always fair and square, and disclose all you know, you have a very high probability of getting very high feedback 100% or 99% over a large number of transactions. In other words, you do transactions for the long haul and the next transaction and not for the one time deal.
So, when I buy from someone on ebay, I want to buy from somebody with a high rating and I want a high rating for myself too when I sell something.
Having said that, the buyer is always responsible for checking out the purchase to his satisfaction. I see some rust and say, no big deal, others might say no way, hosa.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 38,923
Likes: 1,481
From: Southbound
Cruise-In II Veteran
As a seller, I feel you meet your obligation by attempting not to deliberately deceive when listing the car and by honestly answering questions you may be asked.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,215
Likes: 1
From: Orlando FL
IMHO, as a seller you disclose everything you know fair and square.
Case in point, if you do ebay, and if you are always fair and square, and disclose all you know, you have a very high probability of getting very high feedback 100% or 99% over a large number of transactions. In other words, you do transactions for the long haul and the next transaction and not for the one time deal.
So, when I buy from someone on ebay, I want to buy from somebody with a high rating and I want a high rating for myself too when I sell something.
Having said that, the buyer is always responsible for checking out the purchase to his satisfaction. I see some rust and say, no big deal, others might say no way, hosa.
Case in point, if you do ebay, and if you are always fair and square, and disclose all you know, you have a very high probability of getting very high feedback 100% or 99% over a large number of transactions. In other words, you do transactions for the long haul and the next transaction and not for the one time deal.
So, when I buy from someone on ebay, I want to buy from somebody with a high rating and I want a high rating for myself too when I sell something.
Having said that, the buyer is always responsible for checking out the purchase to his satisfaction. I see some rust and say, no big deal, others might say no way, hosa.
you gotta be an upfront and honest as you can
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvette Engines RANKED by Peak Torque (70+ Years of Muscle!)
Joe Kucinski
Corvette ZR1X Will Be Pacing the Indy 500, And Could Probably Race, Too!
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvettes Coming to Mecum Indy 2026!
Brett Foote
Top 10 C9 Corvette MUST-HAVES to Fix These C8 Generation Flaws!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Revolutionary 'Corvette Firsts' Most People Don't Know
Joe Kucinski
5 Reasons to Upgrade to an LS6-Powered Corvette; 5 Reasons to Stay LT2
Michael S. Palmer
2027 Corvette vs The World: Every C8 vs Its Closest Competitor
Joe Kucinski
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,976
Likes: 6,202
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
Case in point, if you do ebay, and if you are always fair and square, and disclose all you know, you have a very high probability of getting very high feedback 100% or 99% over a large number of transactions. In other words, you do transactions for the long haul and the next transaction and not for the one time deal.
So, when I buy from someone on ebay, I want to buy from somebody with a high rating and I want a high rating for myself too when I sell something.
.
Plus, many eBay related transactions are completed offline and do not receive feedback. Finally, since eBay ceased allowing buyers to receive negative feedback, it's completely messed up the feedback system.
So, I would not overrate lots of feedback or underestimate very little feedback.
Last edited by vettebuyer6369; Aug 29, 2013 at 04:55 PM. Reason: typo, re: ebay buyers
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
Caveat emptor.
As a seller, I feel you meet your obligation by attempting not to deliberately deceive when listing the car and by honestly answering questions you may be asked.
What's a "five diamond seller"? How does one get "diamonds"? Where do they come from? Who awards the diamonds?
As a seller, I feel you meet your obligation by attempting not to deliberately deceive when listing the car and by honestly answering questions you may be asked.
What's a "five diamond seller"? How does one get "diamonds"? Where do they come from? Who awards the diamonds?
http://newsroom.aaa.com/diamond-ratings/
Five diamonds are the Best. I stole their idea in classifying a seller. Shoot me! LOL
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 803
Likes: 4
From: Christchurch, New Zealand
Overall, I've found you Americans very honest. But also very good at not disclosing issues! If we don't ask, you don't tell, but if we do, you tell it straight up.
When buying from a dealer here in NZ, we have laws that say you have to get what you ask for, eg, if you say you want a reliable car, and the car they sell you breaks down, say, 4 months down the track, they either have to fix it, replace it, or refund you. It also has to be as described, and fit for the purpose for which it's intended. Same applies to all goods sold, not just cars.
When buying from a dealer here in NZ, we have laws that say you have to get what you ask for, eg, if you say you want a reliable car, and the car they sell you breaks down, say, 4 months down the track, they either have to fix it, replace it, or refund you. It also has to be as described, and fit for the purpose for which it's intended. Same applies to all goods sold, not just cars.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 31,200
Likes: 4,287
From: Westminster Maryland
Hi,
My thoughts seem to be a bit different than many posters so far.
I think many 'sellers' both private and commercial are thought to be far less than honorable.
I wouldn't want to ever be considered part of that group.
I'd tell the complete truth about what I know, and don't know, about the car.
I'm in a position to know more about this car than the buyer can know and think it's wrong to use that to my advantage by keeping things from him because he doesn't ask.
If the car is priced realistically it will sell with the buyer knowing just what he's buying.
Regards,
Alan
My thoughts seem to be a bit different than many posters so far.
I think many 'sellers' both private and commercial are thought to be far less than honorable.
I wouldn't want to ever be considered part of that group.
I'd tell the complete truth about what I know, and don't know, about the car.
I'm in a position to know more about this car than the buyer can know and think it's wrong to use that to my advantage by keeping things from him because he doesn't ask.
If the car is priced realistically it will sell with the buyer knowing just what he's buying.
Regards,
Alan
Racer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 261
Likes: 7
"1972 Corvette for sale. $20,000.00." It's all the Buyer's problem.
"Corvette for sale, beautiful, fresh paint wet sanded and buffed, rust free birdcage and recently rebuilt motor in perfect condition. $23,000." Everything but paint, birdcage, and motor Buyer's problem, unless the Bill of Sale says AS IS. If it doesn't, and any of that is not true, it's the seller's problem.
A vehicle seller has no affirmative duty to disclose anything, period, so long as it isn't willfully concealed. Dumping motor honey in for the test drive to intentionally conceal knocking and smoking can create a big problem called fraud. But if it smokes to high heaven and you buy it off of eBay without driving and the smoking is not disclosed? Too bad, so sad.
"Corvette for sale, beautiful, fresh paint wet sanded and buffed, rust free birdcage and recently rebuilt motor in perfect condition. $23,000." Everything but paint, birdcage, and motor Buyer's problem, unless the Bill of Sale says AS IS. If it doesn't, and any of that is not true, it's the seller's problem.
A vehicle seller has no affirmative duty to disclose anything, period, so long as it isn't willfully concealed. Dumping motor honey in for the test drive to intentionally conceal knocking and smoking can create a big problem called fraud. But if it smokes to high heaven and you buy it off of eBay without driving and the smoking is not disclosed? Too bad, so sad.
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,976
Likes: 6,202
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
Now some buyers are actually extorting sellers into partial refunds, etc because they know they can pull any scam they want and ebay always sides with the buyer. I stopped worrying about my feedback, even though Im still 100% since 1996.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,274
Likes: 6
From: Corvetteville USA
My typo, I'm sorry. I meant to say ebay doesn't allow buyers to receive negative feedback. My post came across backwards.
Now some buyers are actually extorting sellers into partial refunds, etc because they know they can pull any scam they want and ebay always sides with the buyer. I stopped worrying about my feedback, even though Im still 100% since 1996.
Now some buyers are actually extorting sellers into partial refunds, etc because they know they can pull any scam they want and ebay always sides with the buyer. I stopped worrying about my feedback, even though Im still 100% since 1996.
Good job on the perfect feedback!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,231
Likes: 115
From: Yelm Wa
Agree, honesty in all transactions.
As a buyer, you need to be aware that all sellers are not honest. In addition to that, some conditions may be subjective, left for interpretation. The seller may honestly believe his car is near perfect..yet, he could be wrong, honest, but wrong.
Buyer needs to make his own decision/judgement, of condition..after all he has to live with it.
As a buyer, you need to be aware that all sellers are not honest. In addition to that, some conditions may be subjective, left for interpretation. The seller may honestly believe his car is near perfect..yet, he could be wrong, honest, but wrong.
Buyer needs to make his own decision/judgement, of condition..after all he has to live with it.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,116
From: Crossville TN
If you (as seller) have knowledge of something "safety" related that is defective or 'suspect', and you do not disclose it to the buyer, you can be held liable for actual and punative damages in a court of law, should someone in that car become injured (or worse) due to that fault.
For instance, if you were intending to replace the [factory original] ragjoint, which is "toast" in your opinion, you should point out that you think it should be repaired/replaced. What value they place on that item and how much credibility they place on your assessment is then THEIR problem. But, if you don't tell them and, later, the car you sold crashes because of a failed ragjoint, the new owner's insurance company will NO DOUBT 'attempt' to come after you for compensation.
No one has to detail all those minor issues that are readily visible or should reasonably be detected by the buyer when inspected. But, you want to give fair notice of any significant areas of concern that you have with the car.
For instance, if you were intending to replace the [factory original] ragjoint, which is "toast" in your opinion, you should point out that you think it should be repaired/replaced. What value they place on that item and how much credibility they place on your assessment is then THEIR problem. But, if you don't tell them and, later, the car you sold crashes because of a failed ragjoint, the new owner's insurance company will NO DOUBT 'attempt' to come after you for compensation.
No one has to detail all those minor issues that are readily visible or should reasonably be detected by the buyer when inspected. But, you want to give fair notice of any significant areas of concern that you have with the car.