NCRS / Bowtie question
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 39
From: South Central PA
2017 C3 of Year Finalist
[QUOTE=z06scentair;1588282098][QUOTE=tdogg21;1588281289] On top of that, no one seems to be able to confirm to me if I can have aftermarket tires/wheels on the car for the performance verification. [QUOTE]
[QUOTE] Direct from Tom Barr
Tires must be the same size as came on the car when new. They may be any brand name.
Great! Thanks for finding this out. I have asked numerous NCRS people over the years. As a matter of fact, every year I go to the NCRS table at Corvettes at Carlisle just to ask this question. No one would give me a straight answer. Thank you for finding out for me.
[QUOTE] Direct from Tom Barr
Tires must be the same size as came on the car when new. They may be any brand name.
Great! Thanks for finding this out. I have asked numerous NCRS people over the years. As a matter of fact, every year I go to the NCRS table at Corvettes at Carlisle just to ask this question. No one would give me a straight answer. Thank you for finding out for me.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
You could ask your question on the NCRS tech discussion board.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,605
Likes: 839
From: PA
With regard to the tire question...
Tom Barr is correct... For the model years he is responsible for.
For earlier cars, specifically those built between 1968 and 1972, tires must be of the same manufacturer and construction as the original tires. That means you must use a reproduction nylon belted tire in the correct size and by one of the three suppliers used (two actually, as nobody reproduces a nylon belted, U.S. Royal tire in F70-15).
Use of a radial tire will result in failure as it gives the car a "mechanical advantage" over the nylon belted tire.
Use of an original tire will result in a failure as it is a safety issue.
I've seen PV failures of each.
Regards,
Stan
Tom Barr is correct... For the model years he is responsible for.
For earlier cars, specifically those built between 1968 and 1972, tires must be of the same manufacturer and construction as the original tires. That means you must use a reproduction nylon belted tire in the correct size and by one of the three suppliers used (two actually, as nobody reproduces a nylon belted, U.S. Royal tire in F70-15).
Use of a radial tire will result in failure as it gives the car a "mechanical advantage" over the nylon belted tire.
Use of an original tire will result in a failure as it is a safety issue.
I've seen PV failures of each.
Regards,
Stan
Team Owner
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 31,497
Likes: 1,313
From: Huntsville AL
Got to jump in here, as this is the one topic that I don't sit still for.
Original tires are great for looks (maybe), but don't even consider driving on them.
If you really want an education, google "tire aging" and look at the FATALITY numbers. Yes I said FATALITY, as in DEAD!
How many points is your life worth?
OK, off my soap box now...going back to sleep.
Original tires are great for looks (maybe), but don't even consider driving on them.
If you really want an education, google "tire aging" and look at the FATALITY numbers. Yes I said FATALITY, as in DEAD!
How many points is your life worth?
OK, off my soap box now...going back to sleep.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 39
From: South Central PA
2017 C3 of Year Finalist
Got to jump in here, as this is the one topic that I don't sit still for.
Original tires are great for looks (maybe), but don't even consider driving on them.
If you really want an education, google "tire aging" and look at the FATALITY numbers. Yes I said FATALITY, as in DEAD!
How many points is your life worth?
OK, off my soap box now...going back to sleep.
Original tires are great for looks (maybe), but don't even consider driving on them.
If you really want an education, google "tire aging" and look at the FATALITY numbers. Yes I said FATALITY, as in DEAD!
How many points is your life worth?
OK, off my soap box now...going back to sleep.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
That's my point. Old tires are dangerous. So why penalize someone for making their car road worthy? Yes it's a small deduction, but it could be the difference between and award or nothing. Until the NCRS modifies it's views, I will stand by my feeling that they are more concerned with judging sheets than safety.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 39
From: South Central PA
2017 C3 of Year Finalist
I agree. But most cars aren't perfect going in to judging and you have to expect something unexpected to happen during judging (the only time my radio has ever malfunctioned was during judging). If you go into the day already knowing you're going to get docked on your battery, oil filter, and tires; that doesn't leave a lot of room for error when going for a Duntov or McClellan when you can only lose 135 total points. All I'm saying, they can't claim to be concerned with safety if they are penalizing you for making your car safer and rewarding you for keeping it unsafe.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 31,497
Likes: 1,313
From: Huntsville AL
tdogg21;
NCRS is what NCRS is. There is a set of standards that everyone has to adhere to.
The points you lose for replacement tires, assuming you got the "correct" replacement tires should be more than covered by fire extinguisher, battery cutoff, NCRS windshield sticker, all those other things that you get extra points for.
I can't recall what all they are, and my list above me not be accurate, but those things are also spelled out.
Personally, I agree with you about tires, to a certain degree. I don't think that ANY car should have tires older than 10 years on it, regardless of the usage of the car.
Part of the idea here is also to justify the reproduction market to produce accurate reproductions. The market will drive this issue.
Accept the minor point loss, continue to campaign for change to your NCRS regional rep, and be safe....all at the same time.
NCRS is what NCRS is. There is a set of standards that everyone has to adhere to.
The points you lose for replacement tires, assuming you got the "correct" replacement tires should be more than covered by fire extinguisher, battery cutoff, NCRS windshield sticker, all those other things that you get extra points for.
I can't recall what all they are, and my list above me not be accurate, but those things are also spelled out.
Personally, I agree with you about tires, to a certain degree. I don't think that ANY car should have tires older than 10 years on it, regardless of the usage of the car.
Part of the idea here is also to justify the reproduction market to produce accurate reproductions. The market will drive this issue.
Accept the minor point loss, continue to campaign for change to your NCRS regional rep, and be safe....all at the same time.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 39
From: South Central PA
2017 C3 of Year Finalist
You are exactly right. And I completely understand if you make one exception, where does it stop? But at the same time, when it comes to a potentially serious safety issue and there are no replacement options, I think something should be done. I know it never will, and that's fine. Like you said NCRS is what NCRS is. And I respect that they insist on perfection. My issue was when it was said the NCRS is concerned with safety. They are not but that's fine. It's not their jurisdiction so to speak.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,605
Likes: 839
From: PA
About as simple and safe as it gets.
I should also mention that if points are that much of a concern, there is nothing stoping you from flight judging the car with real tires and doing the PV with correct reproduction tires.
Regards,
Stan
Last edited by Rowdy Rat; Nov 20, 2014 at 01:33 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 31,497
Likes: 1,313
From: Huntsville AL
You are exactly right. And I completely understand if you make one exception, where does it stop? But at the same time, when it comes to a potentially serious safety issue and there are no replacement options, I think something should be done. I know it never will, and that's fine. Like you said NCRS is what NCRS is. And I respect that they insist on perfection. My issue was when it was said the NCRS is concerned with safety. They are not but that's fine. It's not their jurisdiction so to speak.
The fact that a "correct replacement" tire is not available (at this time) is not pertinent to the discussion. This same issue was at one time true for the earlier cars as well. The market eventually drove the aftermarket industry to produce a quality reproduction.
Your argument is the same argument that has been used for years, and for many model year cars.
Personally, I would not even take a chance on driving out of a car trailer and onto a show field in 10 year plus tires, regardless of how they looked.
Relax and enjoy the process, and most important, your car. Please do so safely.
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 51
From: Gastonia North Carolina
Happens all the time one would guess.
What part or parts are you referring to?
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
It's to be expected that over a 40-50 year period a carb or alternator etc. might have been removed for repair. That act shouldn't and doesn't disqualify it. If the same carb looks like it was removed and restored recently to help the car through Bowtie, that's different. If a car starts to appear that it's recently been massaged in several places, then that might possibly cast doubt over the entire car.
The whole concept of Bowtie was to encourage owners to bring out their untouched cars by offering an award that recognizes their historic value. If this class were not to exist, many of these cars would go through the giant restoration machine and their originality lost forever. The judges and other members have the opportunity to learn from these cars to see how the factory really did things and not what some other restorer's impression might be of 'the truth'.
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 51
From: Gastonia North Carolina
It was from someone that has been a NCRS judge....But I will check back with him to make sure I haven't miss understood him. He also said that is why there are so few 5 star "Bowties". It is very difficult process to pass. My car has rebuilt carbs, motor, brakes, front end, rear end, and clutch. All completed by an NCRS guy some 20 years ago before I bought the car. And then the car sat outside covered for 16 years.....Car looks worse than it is....Paint. interior, and convertible top is original. In the process of cleaning up what I can now. So "IF" it is true... that an original part will not pass if it has been rebuilt and re-installed, it will be tough to pass....I don't know "IF" this is true though, after your comment....thanks....russell
Not at all uncommon to have the items you list as having been worked on.
What matters in this type of judging is original look, fit, finish. Clean the car and have it flight judged first, you will learn alot about the car and process.
This will help you decide if going to a national show is really the cup of tea your after.