NCRS / Bowtie question
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Intermediate
Joined: Sep 2014
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From: West Melbourne Florida
NCRS / Bowtie question
Hello all!
As part of going through my new-to-me 69 convertible, it turns out it legitimately appears to be one of those barn finds you hope for. Number matching block, all original interior, etc. (Have to check # match under car, but hopeful.)
Because there's more original than i expected, a friend mentioned it's close enough for the bowtie class re: NCRS - and deciding if I want to go that route will have an impact on decisions I make about car moving forward.
For example, some of the vacuum lines are hard - still work, but hard. And they still have the original factory wrapping, which looks pretty cool. That said, replacing them with new ones is appealing, so it's one less future thing to worry about <grin>.
With this in mind, anyone else have a bowtie - class car, and what (if anything material) has that changed about decisions you've made about what you've updated on your car?
Any advice greatly appreciated - it'll affect not only "how long" my list is, but exactly how I approach the list as well.
Thank you!
As part of going through my new-to-me 69 convertible, it turns out it legitimately appears to be one of those barn finds you hope for. Number matching block, all original interior, etc. (Have to check # match under car, but hopeful.)
Because there's more original than i expected, a friend mentioned it's close enough for the bowtie class re: NCRS - and deciding if I want to go that route will have an impact on decisions I make about car moving forward.
For example, some of the vacuum lines are hard - still work, but hard. And they still have the original factory wrapping, which looks pretty cool. That said, replacing them with new ones is appealing, so it's one less future thing to worry about <grin>.
With this in mind, anyone else have a bowtie - class car, and what (if anything material) has that changed about decisions you've made about what you've updated on your car?
Any advice greatly appreciated - it'll affect not only "how long" my list is, but exactly how I approach the list as well.
Thank you!
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 51
From: Gastonia North Carolina
Hello all!
As part of going through my new-to-me 69 convertible, it turns out it legitimately appears to be one of those barn finds you hope for. Number matching block, all original interior, etc. (Have to check # match under car, but hopeful.)
Because there's more original than i expected, a friend mentioned it's close enough for the bowtie class re: NCRS - and deciding if I want to go that route will have an impact on decisions I make about car moving forward.
For example, some of the vacuum lines are hard - still work, but hard. And they still have the original factory wrapping, which looks pretty cool. That said, replacing them with new ones is appealing, so it's one less future thing to worry about <grin>.
With this in mind, anyone else have a bowtie - class car, and what (if anything material) has that changed about decisions you've made about what you've updated on your car?
Any advice greatly appreciated - it'll affect not only "how long" my list is, but exactly how I approach the list as well.
Thank you!
As part of going through my new-to-me 69 convertible, it turns out it legitimately appears to be one of those barn finds you hope for. Number matching block, all original interior, etc. (Have to check # match under car, but hopeful.)
Because there's more original than i expected, a friend mentioned it's close enough for the bowtie class re: NCRS - and deciding if I want to go that route will have an impact on decisions I make about car moving forward.
For example, some of the vacuum lines are hard - still work, but hard. And they still have the original factory wrapping, which looks pretty cool. That said, replacing them with new ones is appealing, so it's one less future thing to worry about <grin>.
With this in mind, anyone else have a bowtie - class car, and what (if anything material) has that changed about decisions you've made about what you've updated on your car?
Any advice greatly appreciated - it'll affect not only "how long" my list is, but exactly how I approach the list as well.
Thank you!
Remember Originality pts are as critical as Condition pts when it comes to NCRS. Get yourself a judging manual and go over the car, join a chapter and have the car Flight Judged.
The Flight Judging will pay dividends and you will learn more about the process.
Once again to stress do not change anything that is original unless it needs repair!
Best of Luck
Last edited by z06scentair; Nov 11, 2014 at 08:01 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
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There are no condition points in Bowtie.
I'll risk offending a whole pile of people here and suggest going directly to the NCRS website for answers. There's very, very few people who understand the concept of this type of judging and fewer still who know how all the rules work.
There was an example of a guy last week in the C2 section who was trying to collect parts to restore his car to Bowtie condition.
I'll risk offending a whole pile of people here and suggest going directly to the NCRS website for answers. There's very, very few people who understand the concept of this type of judging and fewer still who know how all the rules work.
There was an example of a guy last week in the C2 section who was trying to collect parts to restore his car to Bowtie condition.
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 51
From: Gastonia North Carolina
There are no condition points in Bowtie.
I'll risk offending a whole pile of people here and suggest going directly to the NCRS website for answers. There's very, very few people who understand the concept of this type of judging and fewer still who know how all the rules work.
There was an example of a guy last week in the C2 section who was trying to collect parts to restore his car to Bowtie condition.
I'll risk offending a whole pile of people here and suggest going directly to the NCRS website for answers. There's very, very few people who understand the concept of this type of judging and fewer still who know how all the rules work.
There was an example of a guy last week in the C2 section who was trying to collect parts to restore his car to Bowtie condition.
Correct no condition pts
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 38,923
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From: Southbound
Cruise-In II Veteran
http://www.ncrs.org/services/judging-awards.php
NCRS - CHEVROLET BOWTIE Award
This award was created by the National Corvette Restorers Society in 1992. The Bowtie award recognizes the un-restored Corvette and encourages the owner to retain and display the car in its present condition for the enjoyment and continuing educational benefit of our membership. The award is earned only at a National Convention by un-restored cars successfully judged and voted to be historically and educationally significant in four areas (Interior, Exterior, Mechanical and Chassis). This award is available to any model year currently judged by NCRS which was manufactured 20 or more years ago. Regardless of change in ownership or judging result the car may never be presented for judging again. The judged section requires an 80 to 85% pass with the following standard "Does the item, part, fabric, plating or coating appear to actually be that which was specifically installed or applied on this car at the time of manufacture". If this is successfully passed the vote with the following standard "Does the area judged display significant educational and historical value which should be preserved in its present condition" is taken. Passing both sections in all four areas earns the NCRS - Chevrolet Bowtie award...
Good Luck.
NCRS - CHEVROLET BOWTIE Award
This award was created by the National Corvette Restorers Society in 1992. The Bowtie award recognizes the un-restored Corvette and encourages the owner to retain and display the car in its present condition for the enjoyment and continuing educational benefit of our membership. The award is earned only at a National Convention by un-restored cars successfully judged and voted to be historically and educationally significant in four areas (Interior, Exterior, Mechanical and Chassis). This award is available to any model year currently judged by NCRS which was manufactured 20 or more years ago. Regardless of change in ownership or judging result the car may never be presented for judging again. The judged section requires an 80 to 85% pass with the following standard "Does the item, part, fabric, plating or coating appear to actually be that which was specifically installed or applied on this car at the time of manufacture". If this is successfully passed the vote with the following standard "Does the area judged display significant educational and historical value which should be preserved in its present condition" is taken. Passing both sections in all four areas earns the NCRS - Chevrolet Bowtie award...
Good Luck.
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Verdad Gallardo
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,236
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From: Myrtle Beach SC
Because there's more original than i expected, a friend mentioned it's close enough for the bowtie class re: NCRS - and deciding if I want to go that route will have an impact on decisions I make about car moving forward.
For example, some of the vacuum lines are hard - still work, but hard. And they still have the original factory wrapping, which looks pretty cool. That said, replacing them with new ones is appealing, so it's one less future thing to worry about
.
For example, some of the vacuum lines are hard - still work, but hard. And they still have the original factory wrapping, which looks pretty cool. That said, replacing them with new ones is appealing, so it's one less future thing to worry about
.Safety should be a priority consideration. If you are driving it, and some component is compromising safety...fix it! Organizations, such as NCRS understand and promote attention to safety. For example, in Top flight, credit (points) is given for fire extinguisher and battery cut-off switch, neither of which were original factory installed equipment.
Hardening of the vacuum lines does not sound like a safety issue and, as suggested above, offers more value in Bowtie judging.
Finally, Bowtie judging is Pass or Fail. Using the vacuum lines above, it will either pass or fail. As posted above...no condition points! If the component offers exceptional beauty, flexibility or sterling finish, these characteristics contribute no value in the pass or fail call.
Hope this helps!
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 21,460
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From: Massillon,Ohio USA
2020 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
Cruise-In VI Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12
http://www.ncrs.org/services/judging-awards.php
"Does the area judged display significant educational and historical value which should be preserved in its present condition" is taken. Passing both sections in all four areas earns the NCRS - Chevrolet Bowtie award...
"Does the area judged display significant educational and historical value which should be preserved in its present condition" is taken. Passing both sections in all four areas earns the NCRS - Chevrolet Bowtie award...
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 51
From: Gastonia North Carolina
...as having owned two 5 Star Bowtie Award cars and taken them through the process from start to finish and have been on the '73-'77 Bowtie Judging Team for several years, even though there are no points for condition, condition is a great consideration for the award. For example, just because you have a 132 original mile '78 Pace Car, but under the hood & chassis the conditions appear the car has been parked on Virginia Beach for the last two decades(as I've seen), doesn't mean you're going to get a Bowtie Award. If the areas have "no educational purposes" due to the aging & severity of the chassis and underhood area rust & corrosion, these two area would most always NOT pass the condition part.
Thanks for clarification I thought I had been told condition played a role in the decision making process for this award.
I have a car that will be undergoing the Crossflags award and was told the same thing.
Brad
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 39
From: South Central PA
2017 C3 of Year Finalist
A few additional considerations as you go about the task of assessing the merits of NCRS Bowtie.
Safety should be a priority consideration. If you are driving it, and some component is compromising safety...fix it! Organizations, such as NCRS understand and promote attention to safety. For example, in Top flight, credit (points) is given for fire extinguisher and battery cut-off switch, neither of which were original factory installed equipment.
Hardening of the vacuum lines does not sound like a safety issue and, as suggested above, offers more value in Bowtie judging.
Finally, Bowtie judging is Pass or Fail. Using the vacuum lines above, it will either pass or fail. As posted above...no condition points! If the component offers exceptional beauty, flexibility or sterling finish, these characteristics contribute no value in the pass or fail call.
Hope this helps!
Safety should be a priority consideration. If you are driving it, and some component is compromising safety...fix it! Organizations, such as NCRS understand and promote attention to safety. For example, in Top flight, credit (points) is given for fire extinguisher and battery cut-off switch, neither of which were original factory installed equipment.
Hardening of the vacuum lines does not sound like a safety issue and, as suggested above, offers more value in Bowtie judging.
Finally, Bowtie judging is Pass or Fail. Using the vacuum lines above, it will either pass or fail. As posted above...no condition points! If the component offers exceptional beauty, flexibility or sterling finish, these characteristics contribute no value in the pass or fail call.
Hope this helps!
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 31,285
Likes: 4,374
From: Westminster Maryland
Hi td,
Aren't tires one the items for which there are Standard deductions?
I think so; even having replacement tires of the OEM brand which vary CONSIDERABLY from the originals, still gets you 70 percent of the originality points. Not too bad in my mind.
I think that encourages people to have safe tires on their car for Flight Judging and driving.
Regards,
Alan
Aren't tires one the items for which there are Standard deductions?
I think so; even having replacement tires of the OEM brand which vary CONSIDERABLY from the originals, still gets you 70 percent of the originality points. Not too bad in my mind.
I think that encourages people to have safe tires on their car for Flight Judging and driving.
Regards,
Alan
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
I'm not sure I would safe the NCRS is very concerned with safety. I have an '87 that has earned a Top Flight. I wanted to keep going with it, but I still have the original tires. If I replace the tires, I can hammered on the judging. If I keep them, I risk not even making it to the show. I've voiced my concerns with some of the top judges in the country and they all agree with me. Unfortunately the organization doesn't want to go down the slippery slope of allowing exceptions within the judging.
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 51
From: Gastonia North Carolina
I'm not sure I would safe the NCRS is very concerned with safety. I have an '87 that has earned a Top Flight. I wanted to keep going with it, but I still have the original tires. If I replace the tires, I can hammered on the judging. If I keep them, I risk not even making it to the show. I've voiced my concerns with some of the top judges in the country and they all agree with me. Unfortunately the organization doesn't want to go down the slippery slope of allowing exceptions within the judging.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 39
From: South Central PA
2017 C3 of Year Finalist
Hi td,
Aren't tires one the items for which there are Standard deductions?
I think so; even having replacement tires of the OEM brand which vary CONSIDERABLY from the originals, still gets you 70 percent of the originality points. Not too bad in my mind.
I think that encourages people to have safe tires on their car for Flight Judging and driving.
Regards,
Alan
Aren't tires one the items for which there are Standard deductions?
I think so; even having replacement tires of the OEM brand which vary CONSIDERABLY from the originals, still gets you 70 percent of the originality points. Not too bad in my mind.
I think that encourages people to have safe tires on their car for Flight Judging and driving.
Regards,
Alan
So yes, it really isn't that bad. But if you ask them, they say, "don't run old tires on your car, we want you to be safe." And when you ask about points, "oh, well, you'll still lose the points." I feel like if they truly cared about safety above all else, they would make exceptions when OEM parts aren't available for safety items.
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 51
From: Gastonia North Carolina
[QUOTE=tdogg21;1588281289]All of you are correct. However, not all of the stock options are still available. I have stock tires on my 87 that received a Top Flight award, but the stock style is no longer available , buy new tires and wheels and swap them at the show, trailer it, or risk the old tires. None of them seem to be a good option.[QUOTE]
Goodyear GS D3 are the replacement tire that are the closest tire for your 87.
[QUOTE]On top of that, no one seems to be able to confirm to me if I can have aftermarket tires/wheels on the car for the performance verification. [QUOTE]
Interesting I will contact Tom Barr now about this.
Goodyear GS D3 are the replacement tire that are the closest tire for your 87.
[QUOTE]On top of that, no one seems to be able to confirm to me if I can have aftermarket tires/wheels on the car for the performance verification. [QUOTE]
Interesting I will contact Tom Barr now about this.
Drifting
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,623
Likes: 51
From: Gastonia North Carolina
[QUOTE=tdogg21;1588281289] On top of that, no one seems to be able to confirm to me if I can have aftermarket tires/wheels on the car for the performance verification. [QUOTE]
[QUOTE] Direct from Tom Barr
Tires must be the same size as came on the car when new. They may be any brand name.
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE] Direct from Tom Barr
Tires must be the same size as came on the car when new. They may be any brand name.
[QUOTE]
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 39
From: South Central PA
2017 C3 of Year Finalist
I know and I realize it's not a major penalty. I guess it's more the principle. I hate thinking my two options are run unsafe tires or take a penalty. I just wish there was a middle ground.