On a numbers matching car, would this stamp pad put you off?

Looks like the stamp was hit askew, hence deeper at one end then fading out at the other making the final important numbers non-conclusive.

Confident it is the original motor, but to me that is a big question mark hanging over the numbers matching thing, even though the dates tie up.

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That is the best shot I have, the rest are even less conclusive.

 

FWIW: I can't say that the VIN derivative stamp would put me off, but I would certainly like to see it more legible. Looks like an April built 68 with the L-79.

 

There's been a number of threads on stamp pads, here's one I found in a quick search. There were many more. I used "number stamp" as the search words.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-thoughts.html

 

Thanks. What are your thoughts on the one in question, from a claiming numbers matching perspective.

The motor is original, but claiming and proving are two different things.

 

Not anywhere near expert here but my thinking, which could be totally wrong, is if it was a forgery it would look better.

 

There is no doubt to me that the motor is original given the history and other factors I'm aware of so I don't dispute authenticity, I'm more concerned with the future and claiming numbers matching at onward resale one day in the future.

 

You may have to educate future buyers on the fact that these stampings were done in two different assembly stages by hand-swinging a big hammer against a hand-held ganged stamp holder. There are inconsistencies in them because of that. Though the symbols in each stamping should align and be straight, because of the gang-holder, the alignment between the two can be way off, they can show heavier indentations toward one side or the other and even bottom vs. top of the letters/numbers. The individual characters can differ within the same symbol, i.e., two fours may show different fonts within the same stamping. There are documented instances of double hits that show ghosted indentations because the guy holding the gang stamp moved slightly between hits. There are also documented stamps that show the line guy ground out a previous stamp and put a new one over top due to a change of option or the chassis being installed into. Keep in mind that these were only to serve the purpose of identifying an engine/chassis for warranty and legal reasons - not collector value. If the stampings were legible, out the door it went.

I agree with pltmgr that forgers tend to aim for perfection. I think the stamp looks fine and shouldn't be any cause for concern - future buyers will just have to educate themselves and call on an experienced eye if they still doubt the pad.

 

Thank you.

So, to the million dollar question.... can you claim numbers matching if the numbers you are trying to match are not conclusively legible, as in this case?

 

What are the last 6 numbers of the vin?

 

Its a poorly done factory stamp. Wouldn’t bother me. Good fonts and nice broach marks.

 

But could you prove numbers matching to future buyers?

 

The fact you have to ask kind of proves my point - 416160

 

It's a TFP (Typical Factory Production) stamping. It won't impact the value on a 68 327 car at all when the seller tries to sell the car.

 

Appears to be listed on the C3 registry. 4/13 build date.

 

How about a picture of the VIN derivative stamp on the tranny? The engine and tranny were stamped at the same time, with the same gang stamp and hammer, swung by the same careless assembler.

 

You could prove it the same way you would prove a cleaner stamp. In other words, you can’t prove a “pretty” stamp either. I was not there when GM stamped anything. However there is one exception. You could have it verified by CCAS. They would look at the broach marks and match it up to what they have on file for that date. And it will cost you a fair amount of money to do so for a small block 68. But they have a tremendous reputation. And it’s deserved.

Besides, the term “numbers matching” means nothing. Which number? I’ll stamp any number you want and it will match whatever you like. If you mean original motor, please use that term, it has way more meaning. Born with original motor can only mean just that. Matching numbers could literally mean anything. A single number matches, maybe two numbers, maybe the casting number matches, maybe the fake restamped number matches, etc. Matching numbers does not mean original.

And the stamp of this 68 is done with a gang stamp, like the original, and that’s why it’s deep in one end and light on the other. It just looks ugly. Good broach marks. Lots of work to fake a small block.

 

If you are discussing a 'driver' vehicle, having "numbers matching" may be worth a few hundred. Where the documentation is VERY important is with rare and/or historic museum pieces. If not numbers matching vehicle, 50% or more of the vehicle value could be lost. These vehicles also require much more documentation than just matching VIN stampings.

From the computer-screen photo, that number stamp pad doesn't look 'abnormal', IMO.

 

Yes. I believe there is enough that is legible to claim that. You can make out the right side of the stamping when you know the VIN from the body. (It's hard to tell from the one photo how clearly one could decipher the last 5 or so digits if viewed in person.)

Ed427 is exactly right here. Just because an engine has the correct, legible stamps doesn't 100% prove it's the real thing either. A buyer who wants to be nearly 100% assured would look at all of the casting numbers and dates on the block, heads, intake, exhaust manifolds, water pump, etc. in relation to the build date of the car. Even though NCRS states that a part can pre-date the car by up to 6 months, the block, heads, and intake should be much shorter, about 2-4 weeks prior is a better window. Likewise, a less than perfect stamp pad – with no glaring red flags – that is backed up by correct component part numbers with appropriate dates lends credence to the installation. You can only educate and honestly represent the car to potential buyers, the rest is up to them to decide if they feel assured enough to complete the purchase.

 

That stamp looks like it is original and the engine belongs in the car. Date codes cast into the block at the rear are worth noting. If I was an interested buyer the block would not scare me away from "matching numbers" OR "original engine" descriptions.

 

Thanks everyone, an educational and informative discussion for me.