Headers causing too much engine compartment heat
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2021
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Headers causing too much engine compartment heat
Hi I have a 1972 string ray . It was bone stock but as I now live in Florida I upgraded the radiator and fan to a high end system with electric fan. Question 1 , will this reduce ventilation per se in the engine compartment vs a fan ? I upgraded to headers and now concerned it’s creating too much heat , problems are three burned out coils , two burned out pick up coils , Now back to points and now the new high torque starter is dead. This all happened within 2k miles . Anyone have a bad experience with headers or conversion to electric fans ? ( btw the car runs fairly cool 180-200 f ) gauge is spot on as I check with a IR gun.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
I think you answered your own question. How can the issue be headers if the temps are running fairly cool at 180?
All your issues seem to have a common denominator. "Electrical".
C3s have electrical GRDs all over the place. With your issues, I would suspect a poor GRD somewhere. Do you have a GRD strap / cable / bracket from the block to frame?
How about starter to frame?
Are you using rubber engine / tranny mounts?
As far as the HEI coils, on one corner of the coil pack is a GRD wire. Its held on by one of the four mounting screws. Make sure you have a bare metal spot under the screw head and wire terminal. Some of those coils have a thick paint coating that needs to be removed first.
All your issues seem to have a common denominator. "Electrical".
C3s have electrical GRDs all over the place. With your issues, I would suspect a poor GRD somewhere. Do you have a GRD strap / cable / bracket from the block to frame?
How about starter to frame?
Are you using rubber engine / tranny mounts?
As far as the HEI coils, on one corner of the coil pack is a GRD wire. Its held on by one of the four mounting screws. Make sure you have a bare metal spot under the screw head and wire terminal. Some of those coils have a thick paint coating that needs to be removed first.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; May 19, 2021 at 12:55 PM.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 25
Likes: 3
I think you answered your own question. How can the issue be headers if the temps are running fairly cool at 180?
All your issues seem to have a common denominator. "Electrical".
C3s have electrical GRDs all over the place. With your issues, I would suspect a poor GRD somewhere. Do you have a GRD strap / cable / bracket from the block to frame?
How about starter to frame?
Are you using rubber engine / tranny mounts?
All your issues seem to have a common denominator. "Electrical".
C3s have electrical GRDs all over the place. With your issues, I would suspect a poor GRD somewhere. Do you have a GRD strap / cable / bracket from the block to frame?
How about starter to frame?
Are you using rubber engine / tranny mounts?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,232
Likes: 1,232
From: PHX AZ
Aerothermodynamics.
Hi I have a 1972 string ray . It was bone stock but as I now live in Florida I upgraded the radiator and fan to a high end system with electric fan. Question 1 , will this reduce ventilation per se in the engine compartment vs a fan ? Yes, Stan It will. Electric fans are TERRIFICALLY MISUNDERSTOOD. They almost completely disrupt and block the 'ram-air effect that Zora designed into your car. Chevrolet spent millions of dollars in designing the fan, fan clutch and SHROUD to cool the Corvette. All of the hot weather testing was done just miles away at the Mesa proving grounds here in 120 F AZ. Additionally the Grilles in the fenders are actually functional. I upgraded to headers and now concerned it’s creating too much heat , You should wrap the headers. problems are three burned out coils , two burned out pick up coils , Now back to points and now the new high torque starter is dead. This all happened within 2k miles . Anyone have a bad experience with headers or conversion to electric fans ? ( btw the car runs fairly cool 180-200 f ) gauge is spot on as I check with a IR gun.
Best of luck.
unkahal
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 7,654
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From: Indiana
valid theory i always thought about.. a clutch fan blows air ALL the time..(varies obviously) but electric on and or off.. all this relating to OP engine compartment temps not specifically coolant.
probably not the issue specifically maybe.. but still plausible
probably not the issue specifically maybe.. but still plausible
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: May 2021
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Thanks , I am a scientist so now realizing how I may have screwed up a perfect stock set up with aftermarket stuff . But not lol bad and the wilwood brakes are great , vintage air is good and new front end and PS works great, rides and tracks the road exceptionally!
Race Director
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Where is Tom DeWitt when you need him?!
Do not believe everything you read on the internet. I am not going to engage in yet another anti-electric fan debate. One of the posts above is blatantly incorrect.
Do not believe everything you read on the internet. I am not going to engage in yet another anti-electric fan debate. One of the posts above is blatantly incorrect.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2021
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Wrapping headers in special for this purpose tape not only reduces infrared heat. Performance will also increase, due to resulting higher exhaust gas velocity.
Converting over to an aluminum-bodied reduction-geared starter motor shielded by a sheet metal plate would also insure dependability
Converting over to an aluminum-bodied reduction-geared starter motor shielded by a sheet metal plate would also insure dependability
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From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
Make sure the Electric fan is rated at 2200 cfm or higher. I think the original mechanical fan produces 2,000 cfm.
Question: With the hood opened slightly can you actually feel a strong "breeze" through the gaps under the slightly opened hood when the E-fan turns on? If NOT you either need a higher cfm E-fan or add another fan to the radiator to provide greater airflow (Pusher/Puller combo E-fans)
I lowered the underhood temp by 50*F when I installed the additional E-fan.
There's no sense in undoing an expensive electric fan set-up when some tweaking will help.
Keep us updated
Question: With the hood opened slightly can you actually feel a strong "breeze" through the gaps under the slightly opened hood when the E-fan turns on? If NOT you either need a higher cfm E-fan or add another fan to the radiator to provide greater airflow (Pusher/Puller combo E-fans)
I lowered the underhood temp by 50*F when I installed the additional E-fan.
There's no sense in undoing an expensive electric fan set-up when some tweaking will help.
Keep us updated
Last edited by doorgunner; May 20, 2021 at 10:10 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2019
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From: Indiana
I don’t think you screwed anything up..shoot a few pics of your rad and fans and seals...all good advice to be sure best practices learned...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
I think half of you missed the first clue: Normal 180* temps.
Its not overheating. He has electrical parts burning up. Not from the headers, fan, Rad, etc.
And not just any electrical parts, but coils.
So why are these shorting out?
And back to the original question: There are tens of thousands of C3s running headers w/o burning up coils.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<There is one of them to the left.
Also note: header wrap works, so they say. But it promotes rust, does not increase exhaust velocity and will void any header warranty if still active.
Its not overheating. He has electrical parts burning up. Not from the headers, fan, Rad, etc.
And not just any electrical parts, but coils.
So why are these shorting out?
And back to the original question: There are tens of thousands of C3s running headers w/o burning up coils.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<There is one of them to the left.
Also note: header wrap works, so they say. But it promotes rust, does not increase exhaust velocity and will void any header warranty if still active.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; May 19, 2021 at 06:15 PM.
Le Mans Master
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From: Indiana
i like pics too..
agreed
Last edited by interpon; May 19, 2021 at 06:12 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2017
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From: PHX AZ
I didn't miss it EITHER. water jacket temps have nothing to do with 950 degrees coming off the headers.
Iron or steel, when heated to above 900 °F (460 °C), glows with a red color. The color of heated iron changes predictably (due to black-body radiation) from dull red through orange and yellow to white, and can be a useful indicator of its temperature
Y-all have seen headers glowing red-hot.
Unkahal
Iron or steel, when heated to above 900 °F (460 °C), glows with a red color. The color of heated iron changes predictably (due to black-body radiation) from dull red through orange and yellow to white, and can be a useful indicator of its temperature
Y-all have seen headers glowing red-hot.
Unkahal
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
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From: Cool Northern Michigan
Yes I have. And that usually indications something else is wrong.
Such as IGN firing on the late side. Excessive slop in a timing chain. An exhaust valve or two that refuses to seal. Or an overly lean induction system.
But, we are getting off the subject.
Such as IGN firing on the late side. Excessive slop in a timing chain. An exhaust valve or two that refuses to seal. Or an overly lean induction system.
But, we are getting off the subject.
Last edited by HeadsU.P.; May 19, 2021 at 06:22 PM.
Is my vette stock?? HAHA
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From: Im not allowed to tell you
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YOu can get a cheap wrap for the starter, headers usually do fry those. THe one I bought was $35 and it looks llike one of those old silver fire fighter suits. As for the rest you should have at least one engine to frame ground. I have two, one from the starter block to the frame and one from the drivers side motor mount to the frame. Make sure they are free from any rust between the wire end and the bare metal they are bolted to.
Racer
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From: SARNIA ONTARIO
Dr. Detroit
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: New Braunfels Texas
Did you buy ceramic coated headers? Where is your timing set at? Raw headers run at 500-600 degrees at the tube if tuned properly.....300 for ceramic coated. If timing is way off.....tube temps can elevate to 800+ degrees.....enough to damage most anything around it......
Nothing erks me more than conversations about header wrap.......almost always complete bullshit.
The thing that cracks me up is folks spend huge money on non-coated headers, put them on and decide they are too hot.......never fix the real problem (almost always incorrect timing), then wrap their expensive purchase with some crap that will rust your headers to dust the first time they get wet....it's a band aid "fix". And as far as it being worth more power......I guess NHRA Pro Stock should start running header wrap after all of these years........
Buy a premium header with ceramic coating inside and out.......leave the header wrap for Facebook page discussions.
Jebby
Nothing erks me more than conversations about header wrap.......almost always complete bullshit.
The thing that cracks me up is folks spend huge money on non-coated headers, put them on and decide they are too hot.......never fix the real problem (almost always incorrect timing), then wrap their expensive purchase with some crap that will rust your headers to dust the first time they get wet....it's a band aid "fix". And as far as it being worth more power......I guess NHRA Pro Stock should start running header wrap after all of these years........
Buy a premium header with ceramic coating inside and out.......leave the header wrap for Facebook page discussions.
Jebby
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 7,654
Likes: 2,469
From: Indiana
Did you buy ceramic coated headers? Where is your timing set at? Raw headers run at 500-600 degrees at the tube if tuned properly.....300 for ceramic coated. If timing is way off.....tube temps can elevate to 800+ degrees.....enough to damage most anything around it......
Nothing erks me more than conversations about header wrap.......almost always complete bullshit.
The thing that cracks me up is folks spend huge money on non-coated headers, put them on and decide they are too hot.......never fix the real problem (almost always incorrect timing), then wrap their expensive purchase with some crap that will rust your headers to dust the first time they get wet....it's a band aid "fix". And as far as it being worth more power......I guess NHRA Pro Stock should start running header wrap after all of these years........
Buy a premium header with ceramic coating inside and out.......leave the header wrap for Facebook page discussions.
Jebby
Nothing erks me more than conversations about header wrap.......almost always complete bullshit.
The thing that cracks me up is folks spend huge money on non-coated headers, put them on and decide they are too hot.......never fix the real problem (almost always incorrect timing), then wrap their expensive purchase with some crap that will rust your headers to dust the first time they get wet....it's a band aid "fix". And as far as it being worth more power......I guess NHRA Pro Stock should start running header wrap after all of these years........
Buy a premium header with ceramic coating inside and out.......leave the header wrap for Facebook page discussions.
Jebby
i am obsessed with getting heat out.. used that DEI heat wrap on pipes around starter etc..(and silver reflective on 79 starter heat shield)
wonder what OP runs? try an IR gun and see? at idle and after a spirited drive pop hood and check?
Advanced
Joined: Apr 2021
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The first time I used an electric fan, I started having alternator failures. Big fans with on/off relay control systems can cause big swings in voltage requirements, resulting in voltage spikes. If the alternator and associated wiring have not been upgraded, problems can be worse.
I started using Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) fan controllers about 15 years ago, and have not had issues since (but I also upgrade to charging wires large enough to handle the amperages). I've used a few brands, but now exclusively use DC Controls http://www.dccontrol.com/constant_te...ontrollers.htm He (Brian Baskin) takes a few weeks to deliver, but each unit is built by him and extensively tested before shipping. With this controller, the fan speed will vary in relation to the coolant temps. This not only eliminates voltage spikes, it also does away with coolant temp swings, leading to a motor running at a more consistent temperature.
I started using Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) fan controllers about 15 years ago, and have not had issues since (but I also upgrade to charging wires large enough to handle the amperages). I've used a few brands, but now exclusively use DC Controls http://www.dccontrol.com/constant_te...ontrollers.htm He (Brian Baskin) takes a few weeks to deliver, but each unit is built by him and extensively tested before shipping. With this controller, the fan speed will vary in relation to the coolant temps. This not only eliminates voltage spikes, it also does away with coolant temp swings, leading to a motor running at a more consistent temperature.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 2,810
From: Cool Northern Michigan
Stan L72,
If this three burnt coil issue was truly the headers at fault, the plugwires would be burnt, all the rubber vacuum lines would be brittle, your coolant temps would be higher, and your fuel bowls would percolate. I bet the starter issue is also a poor GRD rather than heat.
Your issues are too many ohms, not enough ohms, too many volts, not enough volts, poor grounds, I don't know.
But as far as you know the ALT maybe over sending voltage. Or the distributor is sending voltage to poorly grounded plugs. Again, IDK.
Concentrate on the electrical components. Points, condenser, rotor, cap, coil, coil wire, plug wires or
HEI modge, coil, trigger, cap, rotor, etc. And GRDs !
If this three burnt coil issue was truly the headers at fault, the plugwires would be burnt, all the rubber vacuum lines would be brittle, your coolant temps would be higher, and your fuel bowls would percolate. I bet the starter issue is also a poor GRD rather than heat.
Your issues are too many ohms, not enough ohms, too many volts, not enough volts, poor grounds, I don't know.
But as far as you know the ALT maybe over sending voltage. Or the distributor is sending voltage to poorly grounded plugs. Again, IDK.
Concentrate on the electrical components. Points, condenser, rotor, cap, coil, coil wire, plug wires or
HEI modge, coil, trigger, cap, rotor, etc. And GRDs !