Hey CF

Several months ago, I sent my 79 roller to a shop who had a short block ready for me. They sent that block to a machine shop for a cleanup, and then assembled the engine will all new parts and installed in the Vette. That engine was built with a comp cams flat tappet cam and broken in. Today, I got a call because some valve train noise was getting worse and the mechanic confirmed that one of the lobes had been wiped. He also confirmed that Comp
requires you to run a valve spring with less that 270# of open load. Of course, my aftermarket heads have 300#. Long story short, engine is being pulled, flushed, and new parts are in route.

Questions for the forum:
1. Should I be liable for any additional labor to pull the engine / clean / reassemble, etc?
2. Am I crazy for thinking it may be a better use of my time to pull the plug on this shop altogether and have everything taken to another shop?

Thanks
- Ian

 

did you order the parts and ask them to assemble?

should the shop / mechanic known the issue beforehand? maybe?

I guess this all depends on what you ask them to do and what the agreement was. If it was to assemble what you provided then I'm thinking its on you. Stuff like this is why my buddy who owns a performance shop refuses to use parts supplied by the customer. If they insist he gives them 2 options...go elsewhere or he is not responsible if **** goes sideways.

That being said, he built my forged motor and after having oil consumption issues I took it back and he found out that one of the rings didn't seat. He redid it all on his dime and apologized.

Good luck getting it resolved.

 

It was a mix and match of my new parts, and parts they ordered. Heads and cam kit were delivered by me. Rocker arms, pushrods were ordered by them, for example.

 

Agree with Pewter, if you spec'd/provided the parts then it's your problem. Had my 396 short block assembled by a shop, to my specs, if it fails I can only look in the mirror for fault, as an idiot had it built.

If the shop offers any relief then graciously take it.

 

WOW! That sucks! I always ask why members build a motor with a FT cam when they risk flatting the cam by improper break-in practices. This is not to beat you up in any way, but it just isn't worth the aggravation, cash and having to pull the motor again and go through it all, all over again. Install a retro kit roller and you will not have to worry about that issue or have to put a high zinc oil or adaptive in the oil after each oil change. It's hard to say who is going to be responsible, but the shop may be on the hook for this one because of spring pressure if they put it together.

I would never build another motor with a FT cam. I know there are plenty of people that have never had an issue with them and I'm one of them, but I have heard of many bad ending stories and have had friends that it has happened to. Good luck however this goes.

 

Believe me, I would have gone down the retrofit cam path if CA smog and money weren’t an issue. Hindsight is always 20/20

 

See if you can get them to warranty any of the parts, and get it in cash, use that to offset the cost of a roller cam setup. If they pull the engine for you, or do any other work, you will be further ahead.

EDIT: Aren't there any rollercam solutions for Californians? It might be cheaper to move.

 

If the shop is too stupid to pull the valve spings apart and remove the inner springs to reduce the pressure like youre supposed to do per the instructions when breaking in a flat tappet cam, then yes, i would go somewhere else because they are just goiing to keep wiping out our cams

 

50 years of playing with SB Chevy engines and I have never had a wiped cam lobe on a new install, I also have never removed the inner springs.

 

if the heads you supplied came with springs, it was your choice of springs. anything they throw in, you accept graciously. get rid of the flat tappet cam. everybody who is doing a motor should try to find OE dogbone roller blocks. they are cheap and common. the 880 vortec blocks are the best of the bunch and can be had for a couple hundred bucks. yes, you are stuck with electric fuel pump and one piece flywheel. can't have everything...

 

Earlier this year my grandson and I installed a Howards flat tappet cam, part # 112001 -14,in my 76. It's running 624 heads with 1.94 valves and stock springs. The cam specs are, intake valve lift .410 and duration of 255º, exhaust valve lift .420 and duration of 261º. The lobe separation is 114º and the intake C/L is 110º. I did not remove the inner springs on break-in but I did run the valves rather loose.
So far I have about 1500 miles on the engine with no problems and I don't expect any. Being "old school" I wouldn't consider a flat tappet cam fro any one but Isky, Howards, Sig Erson, Crower, or someone who has been in this business longer than I've been alive and I'll be 78 in August.
Just my opinion, but anyone who is trying to run a high lift flat tappet cam and much less than 114º lobe separation on the street is asking for trouble.

 

A few things.....
1) Did the shop use Moly Paste on the lobes for install/break-in? Comps red lube should go right in the ******* trash can as soon as the box is opened......I have never understood how a company that large, old and savvy on cams would continue to ship FT cams with a liquid assembly lube that literally falls off the camshaft in 24 hours at 90+ degrees ambient temperature. The stuff is worthless....and you will never see it at a real professional shop. Crane or Moroso Moly Paste is the ONLY thing to use for a number of reasons.
2) Is this an "XE" series cam? What lift? The XE series is notorious for wiping lobes if lax on the Break-In procedure.
3) Did the shop make sure the lifters spun freely in the bores by hand before installing pushrods? This is important and FREE.....good practice!
4) Was the engine timed exact on #1 and the float bowl full of fuel for instant start-up? You wouldn't believe how many "pros" just blatantly skip this.....have it 180 off or prime the bowl with the starter on a fresh cam....they are they first ******** to tell you it doesn't matter too.
5) Was the engine run for 20 minutes of longer at or around 2500rpm and raised to 2700 and lowered to 2200-2300 rpms during the break-in? Changing the RPM changes the "fan spray" of the oil whipping upward on the cam....getting it started immediately is an obvious thing.
6) Did they show you where Comp says it needs 270psi or less? I have never heard of this.....and if the cam is less than .510 lift the pressure will not be 300 anyway. removing the inner damper for break-in is unnecessary on a 1.250 small block spring......this is a Big Block issue most of the time.
7) How were the valves lashed?

Unfortunately you are at the mercy of the shop to take or not take care of you........but arm yourself with these questions to let them know you have done your homework.......a LOT of shops play the "customer is a dummy card" to skirt out of liability.

Jebby

 

Oh, I'm all too familiar with that 20/20 thing, but what does a roller cam have to do with CA smog/testing? If you like the specs of your FT cam, have a roller ground to that spec or as close as possible, problem solved. The cost of a roller is not all more when you consider what you will have to pay now to fix the issue...Go back to the 20/20 hindsight thing again. Ugh! It sucks no matter how you look at it. Hopefully you will WIN in the end.

 

Chinese flat tappet lifters ,Ken Ellison Machine has three recent video's on the subject now .... my shop will not install a flat tappet cam unless release of liability from way too much risk and parts manufactorers always shift the blame , you can paste lobes , reduce spring pressure until you're blue and they still wipe from garbage lifters

 

This is a great line of questioning - I really appreciate the value add here. To answer the spring rate question - he learned about it after a call with a guy from Comp. I checked their documentation and confirmed its there in the install guide. The spring rate on the valve springs are 380lb/in, and an open load rating of 300# @ 1.280

 

Jebby...I like how you don't beat around the bush. Your opinion of "professional" mechanics is pretty much in line with mine.

OP , this sucks. Sorry to hear it and it puts you between a rock and a hard place, since they can just lie to you regarding any questions you ask about the break in process. I would be leaning towards using someone else if I even got a wiff that they are not being completely honest.
Gotta do this face to face so you can see their reactions. Over the phone won't cut it.

 

Watched all Ken's vids on the subject of cam/lifter issues. A VERY interesting subject and suggest everyone watch them and make up their own minds on this subject. Enjoy!
Part 1: Part 2: Part :

 

*deep sigh* I need a beer

 

OH DAMN! Yep, a BIG SIGH! Those lifters look really bad and trashed the cam. Have a 12 pack, it will help to make it look not as bad as it is. Ugh!

 

I feel your pain , on my customers 1971 429CJ Mustang clone project, I’m covering labor , cam bearings, Rod and main bearings , oil pump and cam thrust plate , along with crank polish …. The customer is paying for roller cam and the pushrods after we measure pushrods at mid lift to determine length

the second camshaft wipe out was an employee with a brand new clean room for engine assembly and every recommended precautions taken, didn’t last 20 minutes.

Both of these cam jobs took out the pump and all bearings and then some , major tear down to clean , in most cases it’s just not worth risking all the extra expenses IF it wipes

ironically my Comp XE262 turned out fine and I never changed springs from what my new Promaxx had come with