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another ebay gold. 390k ask price. 69 L88.
and there are 2 people on fleabay advertising they will build you a date casting number and block stamp correct engine to make your car numbers-matching again. Richard: can you print me a few of those hundred dollar bills?
Last edited by derekderek; Dec 17, 2021 at 08:04 AM.
I see nothing wrong with restamping the original block where a clean up decking removed the stamp during an engine rebuild. The challenge is restamping it properly so down the road one of us doesn’t jump on the potential sale as a “fake restamp”. The other challenge is having the ability to validate it really was the original block that was restamped. Remember, it was quite normal and sanctioned by NCRS in the 70’s and 80’s to restamp engines to maintain originality. As rare models became highly coveted and expensive and thieves sought to cover their tracks, fraud crept in and well, here we are.
When these "matching numbers" issues arise, does anybody compare the engine VIN derivative stamp to the tranny VIN derivative stamp? How does this fraud assisting Engines Limited outfit handle re-stamping the aluminum tranny case?
If trying to pass off a car as something it isn’t….then that is fraud in every sense of the word….BUT, not illegal by any stroke….
To me….the whole numbers thing is way too overwrought to the point where it is silly anymore….
Lets say someone did blow up an L-88 and found a perfect dated replacement block and had it restamped, broached…nipped, tucked and a partridge in a pear tree….to the point where you couldn’t tell….did it happen? Is it better or worse?
Original VIN on a block is a cool conversation piece….but after that it means about nothing to me and thousands of other Vette owners….some more of that DeBeers prestige horseshit that belongs at Pebble Beach and not 99.9% of the rest of us…..
I have argued before that if I built a true nut to bolt copy of a 69’ ZL-1….why is the GM built one worth millions and the copy is not? Think about it intrinsically and not as an art patron….
Ok….soapbox over…..
And I do support those who help others not getting ripped off of an investment…..the Vette detectives here overshadow even my Vette knowledge and are a hell of a resource and are appreciated in that regard…..
But I will never truly understand it.
I am sure glad I don't care about the "matching numbers" narrative. There are so many more important values in building, owning and driving these cars. But.....heh, everyone has their thing.
If trying to pass off a car as something it isn’t….then that is fraud in every sense of the word….BUT, not illegal by any stroke….
To me….the whole numbers thing is way too overwrought to the point where it is silly anymore….
Lets say someone did blow up an L-88 and found a perfect dated replacement block and had it restamped, broached…nipped, tucked and a partridge in a pear tree….to the point where you couldn’t tell….did it happen? Is it better or worse?
Original VIN on a block is a cool conversation piece….but after that it means about nothing to me and thousands of other Vette owners….some more of that DeBeers prestige horseshit that belongs at Pebble Beach and not 99.9% of the rest of us…..
I have argued before that if I built a true nut to bolt copy of a 69’ ZL-1….why is the GM built one worth millions and the copy is not? Think about it intrinsically and not as an art patron….
Ok….soapbox over…..
And I do support those who help others not getting ripped off of an investment…..the Vette detectives here overshadow even my Vette knowledge and are a hell of a resource and are appreciated in that regard…..
But I will never truly understand it.
Jebby
Jebby, completely aligned! This brings up the related topic of using a Dynacorn body, cutting out the vin from your rust bucket, and welding them into the new body to create a rust free classic vs. welding 20 replacement panels onto your rust bucket. My point being at what point does panel replacement cross the line into illegal activity and, to your point, who will really know?
I’m a pretty good welder with my miller mig. I could easily remove the vin stamping on the unibody of a ‘68 fastback Mustang and weld them onto a Dynacorn body and with a little clean up, no one would ever know. I see nothing wrong with replacing one big panel vs. 20 smaller ones, yet there are people on this forum and other forums who will scream it is illegal and the government will confiscate the car, etc. Here is the reality. I own the title to that vin. I own the vin stampings and the car they are affixed to. I am not attempting to deceive, simply fixing the rust on the car I own. The hulk will be disposed of just like the 20 scrap panels I would have cut off. Who am I hurting and what foul have I committed?
I see nothing wrong with restamping the original block where a clean up decking removed the stamp during an engine rebuild. The challenge is restamping it properly so down the road one of us doesn’t jump on the potential sale as a “fake restamp”. The other challenge is having the ability to validate it really was the original block that was restamped. Remember, it was quite normal and sanctioned by NCRS in the 70’s and 80’s to restamp engines to maintain originality. As rare models became highly coveted and expensive and thieves sought to cover their tracks, fraud crept in and well, here we are.
You bring up a point that has been in the back of my mind, for a long time. If, during the machining process of an engine rebuild, in order to "blueprint" an engine, the ORIGINAL block from the car, is decked, then the original numbers that were on the block are stamped back into the block, is it now classified as a "restamp"????
You bring up a point that has been in the back of my mind, for a long time. If, during the machining process of an engine rebuild, in order to "blueprint" an engine, the ORIGINAL block from the car, is decked, then the original numbers that were on the block are stamped back into the block, is it now classified as a "restamp"????
Yep….because how could you prove one way or another….?
And from a practical standpoint…..what difference does it make? To me….if you deck the numbers off…you could stick any other similar block in it and you could not prove one way or the other either….and who would it matter to at that point?
No one in their right mind would do this to a blue chip car though….so highly unlikely it would ever happen.
There are a few machine shops that can deck a block without removing numbers and that is what most do…..
You bring up a point that has been in the back of my mind, for a long time. If, during the machining process of an engine rebuild, in order to "blueprint" an engine, the ORIGINAL block from the car, is decked, then the original numbers that were on the block are stamped back into the block, is it now classified as a "restamp"????
that just means you found a machine shop that has no clue what they are doing and should not even be around a engine block that adds value. Any decent machinist knows you can stop the mill before the pad and still have a good surface for the gasket
Yep….because how could you prove one way or another….?
And from a practical standpoint…..what difference does it make? To me….if you deck the numbers off…you could stick any other similar block in it and you could not prove one way or the other either….and who would it matter to at that point?
No one in their right mind would do this to a blue chip car though….so highly unlikely it would ever happen.
There are a few machine shops that can deck a block without removing numbers and that is what most do…..
Jebby
I understand what you're saying, but my question is if you machining off the numbers, but stamp the SAME numbers back on the block, what have you got?
Are you saying that the stamps that GM used in the engine plant, are some "super secret", GM only stamps, that have a special font, that isn't obtainable anywhere else in the world? And the worker in the plant has some high level, secret clearance, that allows him, and only him, to stamp blocks?
I understand what you're saying, but my question is if you machining off the numbers, but stamp the SAME numbers back on the block, what have you got?
Are you saying that the stamps that GM used in the engine plant, are some "super secret", GM only stamps, that have a special font, that isn't obtainable anywhere else in the world? And the worker in the plant has some high level, secret clearance, that allows him, and only him, to stamp blocks?
No....what I am saying is that once you deck the numbers off an original block.....it just becomes another block, like any other replacement block.....it is not special anymore. It would be exactly the same as stamping a decked block that was not original......proving it would be next to impossible.
But....yes, the factory stamps were propitiatory...and extremely difficult to duplicate....they were kinda special back then and unobtanium now. If you go just using machinists stamps then you will be having to prove it to every Vette sleuth out there and many will not believe you......there are members here who can tell it is a fake just by the shape of the font.....there are members here who can tell you that the font in one letter or number is incorrect for a certain month......fooling these guys is also next to impossible.
I understand what you're saying, but my question is if you machining off the numbers, but stamp the SAME numbers back on the block, what have you got?
Are you saying that the stamps that GM used in the engine plant, are some "super secret", GM only stamps, that have a special font, that isn't obtainable anywhere else in the world? And the worker in the plant has some high level, secret clearance, that allows him, and only him, to stamp blocks?
What you will have is something that everyone will use as an excuse. And the fonts GM used are uniquely shaped, but they are out there and many people do not pay attention before they stamp the pad. Just look at the pic I posted of the phony engine stamp above. The fonts are wrong. If I want to buy an original drivetrain car I want one that wasn’t decked and restamped with any excuses.
If a restamp is good enough for you that’s your business (not necessary you Leadfoot but in general). I have nothing against that. If you don’t care about original cars at all that’s also your choice. It’s important to some but not others. I don’t understand why this is always an issue with the same people. Some people care, some don’t.
So I built an exact replica of the factory built Yellow 69 ZL1 car, which I happen to know well. It didn't bring $5 plus million when I decided to sell it why? (Here was my car)
Well it's no different in any area of collectibles. If you make a fake baseball card of a rare card is it worth the same? No because it isn't an original example. So in the case of a 69 ZL1 they only made one that is fully documented with factory docs and that car becomes a one of one and is valuable to any collector that would like to have that car. For some they like original, factory built cars with docs, others would be perfectly happy with non matching motor cars or the clone that I built. That is what makes the hobby diverse and so great! To me the issue is when people use restamped motors, fake trim tags, and fake paperwork to increase the rarity and value of a car that didn't leave the factory the way that it is being represented. Personally, I prefer original solid lifter early C3's with docs, which is why I started collecting info and building a database of resources to help me better understand the nuances of the real cars form the fake ones.
A Camaro just got pulled off of BAT. Someone noticed a discrepancy in I believe the vin and the trim plate and sent the owner looking for another vin. Well sure enough it did not match.
To the credit of the seller he instantly asked BAT to cancel the auction until he could sort it out.
I am sure he was unaware the the car was put together. Feel bad but you must do your homework for anything that is being advertised as correct and original. There is no excuse!!!!
I am happy that this forum exists with individuals who know way more than me and who are willing to share that to help sort them out.
I would buy nothing until a posted pics of the engine pad, trim tag, tranny info and rear end here first for approval!! Didn’t know the forum for the first Vette but I had done my homework and got lucky. For the second one every car I looked at got posted here first!!! Yeah
I understand what you're saying, but my question is if you machining off the numbers, but stamp the SAME numbers back on the block, what have you got?
Are you saying that the stamps that GM used in the engine plant, are some "super secret", GM only stamps, that have a special font, that isn't obtainable anywhere else in the world? And the worker in the plant has some high level, secret clearance, that allows him, and only him, to stamp blocks?
Years ago I met Al Grenning, long before he started his company - Classic Car Affirmation Service. At the time he was just collecting photos of engine stamps as a hobby. It was fascinating to look through his photo album and see stamps that were only a few digits apart, and in some cases, sequential. The number stamps were held in a gang holder and only the last digit would be changed from one car to the next. If one of the stamps had a chip out of it, it would be the same in a whole series of cars. Sometimes there were mistakes. I had a '66 that had the wrong serial number stamped on the block, then the correct one stamped over it. This was years later and I sent him a photo of the block stamp and he confirmed that it was correct by comparing the stamping to cars ahead and behind mine on the assembly line. Al collected hundreds, maybe thousands of photos of block stampings over the years, and (for a fee now) he will certify your block stamping if he can. I doubt very much it would be possible to get a restamp past him.
I won't comment on the value of an original block vs a 'correct' restamp. It always struck me that we make a bigger issue of it than it probably should be. Although on the other hand, what makes an original Rembrandt more valuable than a good copy?
My '73 big block is numbers matching.
It was important to me as the buyer, only for the purpose that I knew what was in it was from the factory.
The seller told me that he thought the original owner swapped out the original cam for an "RV cam" and that at some point the cast crank was swapped for a forged one.
If so, what is my numbers matching engine really worth with a cam and crank swap?
It's no longer original, and it's worth no more than any other block.
The numbers matching engine, trans and rear differential are all coming out and being replaced with new ones, but will that depreciate my '73's value?
Probably not.
Maybe things have changed with NCRS but it USED to be that if you where truthful that you restamped the engine you lost points. If you didn’t and ran it through judging and it past muster you got the points for an original engine. The whole thing just geared people to be untruthful.
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