Road Course Junkies, Let's compare notes
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,068
Likes: 1
From: Gig Harbor WA
Originally Posted by gkull
I really don't think that over 120 mph is safe even with my roll cage. I've just lessoned the potential for problems. I know exactly what your saying about slowing from high speed. You cover so much ground with just a moments hessitation.
I just got on you because C-3 covers so many years and so does C-4. You could take a stock high HP big block and only put $2500 in suspension and $1500 in tires and you would have a car that could beat nearly any C-4 with The same $4000 budget. On a high speed power track like thunder hill............. The ZR-1 and Grand Sport might skew the statement though.
You can look at it another way. No early c-4 beat my 79 out auto-Xing in BSP It wasn't untill the 86 Vettes came out that I ever got beat. The reason was anti lock brakes. If I would have been road racing then it would have taken away the ABS advantage.
So 84 and 85 Vettes never beat 79 Vette. Those first C-4 were heavy dogs with low HP
I've owned C-4's and out of the box unless you got one with the suspension package I wouldn't even drive them. I don't feel safe in c-4 and older unmodified Vettes
I just got on you because C-3 covers so many years and so does C-4. You could take a stock high HP big block and only put $2500 in suspension and $1500 in tires and you would have a car that could beat nearly any C-4 with The same $4000 budget. On a high speed power track like thunder hill............. The ZR-1 and Grand Sport might skew the statement though.
You can look at it another way. No early c-4 beat my 79 out auto-Xing in BSP It wasn't untill the 86 Vettes came out that I ever got beat. The reason was anti lock brakes. If I would have been road racing then it would have taken away the ABS advantage.
So 84 and 85 Vettes never beat 79 Vette. Those first C-4 were heavy dogs with low HP
I've owned C-4's and out of the box unless you got one with the suspension package I wouldn't even drive them. I don't feel safe in c-4 and older unmodified Vettes
I considered the early C4s in my statement, but didn't feel the need to modify it since the production run covered 12 years and there were LT4s and LT5s to skew the balance, the C4 got noticably better around '88 with steering/suspension changes, increased rear camber, and better brake potential, (13" fronts). You can swap springs around amongst several better years of early Z51 and later Z07 packages for a good set up. add a decent shock and you have a car with lots of potential.
I see we think alike in motor building. my now blown race motor was a Dart block 415 stroker, (soon to be 421)
I couldn't see going to a BBC for track use unless it was aluminum.
I'd be kinda scared to do any serious laps in a C3 without rod ends in the rear and a few extra bars to say the least.
The car should have been built differently from the start, but GM went good enough when they could have gone world class even back then.
Management knew about the wt jacking issues early but refused to work it out.
You could buy my C4 as a roller and put your 427 in it, or finish my 421. It would make a great unlimited Car.
Very reminiscent of Doria's Vette
Last edited by DREGSZ; Sep 18, 2005 at 05:19 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Originally Posted by Evan Ginsberg
I see we think alike in motor building. my now blown race motor was a Dart block 415 stroker, (soon to be 421)
I couldn't see going to a BBC for track use unless it was aluminum.
You could buy my C4 as a roller and put your 427 in it, or finish my 421. It would make a great unlimited Car.
Very reminiscent of Doria's Vette
Don't consider all Big block iron motors as a bad deal. If a race car is in a class with a minimum weight and you can do it with a BBC and keep a good front and rear balance pure ci will have an advantage on the tracks that can use it. I have a co-worker that bought a Vintage Racing Vette. 2750 with driver and fuel and 496ci. It's a real animal with @700 hp and 660 foot pounds on the dyno. They were trying to build it with a 4000 rpm wide power band to cut down on shifting and the loss of traction associated with shifts.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,068
Likes: 1
From: Gig Harbor WA
Originally Posted by gkull
Other than driving skill and a well prepped car the reason why "72 RAY" can pass all the late model Vettes with ease is the 434 ci motor from BadASS motors. I think he got the 600 or so HP model that gives him 500RWHP
.
.
What clutch are you guys using for high HP/tq?
I went to a Quatermaster triple disc which has zero street drivability
I couldn't get a Centerline to hold my motor, it was fine on a 450 hp big block, but couldn't get the power down on a 565 hp race motor.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
bump
lets keep this one going. lots of good stuff here. I believe there are a few road course guys that haven't seen this yet.
So i've been working on lightening the front end. Pulled out the heavy vacuum canister 31 pounds and the big hunk of rubber behind the license plate 13 pounds and sallsalled out the metal plate behind the big rubber thingy 4-5 pounds so the damn thing can get some air into the new radiator.
New griffin aluminum radiator probably saving around 10 pounds. I will measure today before i put it in. The way its going i'll have a lighter car than TT
.
Look foreward to seeing how much improvement it will make.
lets keep this one going. lots of good stuff here. I believe there are a few road course guys that haven't seen this yet.
So i've been working on lightening the front end. Pulled out the heavy vacuum canister 31 pounds and the big hunk of rubber behind the license plate 13 pounds and sallsalled out the metal plate behind the big rubber thingy 4-5 pounds so the damn thing can get some air into the new radiator.
New griffin aluminum radiator probably saving around 10 pounds. I will measure today before i put it in. The way its going i'll have a lighter car than TT
.Look foreward to seeing how much improvement it will make.
Last edited by turtlevette; Oct 7, 2005 at 10:21 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,434
Likes: 0
St. Jude Donor '07
Originally Posted by 72 RAY
Turtlevette,
The tire fit OK statically but with corner loads at speed the fenders would hit for sure. I barely clear the Hoosiers I run. There is no way in the front unless the fiberglass gets reworked.
I'm having pretty good luck with the hoosiers. 25.5x10x15 hossiers TD's up front and 26.5x9.5x15 in the rear. These are on Real racing Wide-5 wheels with adapters, 5" backspace 15x10. Offset trailing arms. They work very well. don't last forever but work great when they are new.
Right now 3500 lbs with me in it. Balance is pretty good and cross weights are pretty good also.
The tire fit OK statically but with corner loads at speed the fenders would hit for sure. I barely clear the Hoosiers I run. There is no way in the front unless the fiberglass gets reworked.
I'm having pretty good luck with the hoosiers. 25.5x10x15 hossiers TD's up front and 26.5x9.5x15 in the rear. These are on Real racing Wide-5 wheels with adapters, 5" backspace 15x10. Offset trailing arms. They work very well. don't last forever but work great when they are new.
Right now 3500 lbs with me in it. Balance is pretty good and cross weights are pretty good also.
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Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
Originally Posted by yellow73sb
Wow your Rear tires stick out very far. I dont think i need my rear tires this wide becuase i probally only have 300 hp at the rear wheels.
putting those really wide tires on back is a huge advantage. It solves the tail-happyness of the car and allows you to push much harder. As George has mentioned before it also gives you a much wider track which adds to stability.
My club won't let anyone run tires that stick out past the fenders. Putting flares on bumps you up into a highly modified group.
Racer
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 292
Likes: 2
From: Plumas Lake CA
Weren't some Vettes optioned with fender flares? I'm thinking of "dealer installed" options that came with the L-88 cars and were added later at the new owners request?
Sounds plausible enough, doesn't it? "That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"
Sounds plausible enough, doesn't it? "That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"
Racer
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
From: Orlando FL
Originally Posted by Evan Ginsberg
I had a C3 and spent years restoring it and finally sold it.
Many of the guys on this board helped me immeasurably during the long buildup.
I admire you guys for tracking your C3s. It wouldn't be my first choice for a track car, or the second, but maybe the third or fourth.
Actually, the only way I would track a C3 is if I got a hold of dedicated race car with a somewhat modernized suspension. (like a C4 rear swapped in) or what was that called? the Guldstrand 5 link or 6 bar that was the model for the C4 rear suspension?
The C4 is a Monster track car. An unbelievable performer. THere isn't really anything I would want to drive at the track after driving a full race C4, except maybe an LG speedvision car or C6R... You get the picture.
Being on the other side of this equation, having a car, trailer, truck, lots of specialized parts, a finicky car that requires lots of set up and maintenence, 25 gallons of 110 oct. Race gas per weekend (at $6 per gallon), a full set of tires each race weekend.
A triple disc clutch that can barely drive around the paddock to hold the 550 hp. endless set up and maintenence, popping $9000 motors with a only a few events on them... I could sell my car for a lightly modded C5, have a second set of wheels to swap on for track events and be done with it.
He is the summation of my race season this year:
1st race: found a crack in the head before getting on track, never made it out.
2nd race: drove 12 hours to the track, lost a valve during qualifying and killed the motor, need new heads and pistons. price tag, $3500 so far.
unemployed for the time being
Race season over.
I don't need to wring every tenth out of a street car, just go out and have fun turning fast laps at the track. Don't trash your nice street car, just have fun and drive it home.
Don't take stupid chances and stay out of the wall, have a nice drive home after.
Keep it simple and have fun.
Many of the guys on this board helped me immeasurably during the long buildup.
I admire you guys for tracking your C3s. It wouldn't be my first choice for a track car, or the second, but maybe the third or fourth.
Actually, the only way I would track a C3 is if I got a hold of dedicated race car with a somewhat modernized suspension. (like a C4 rear swapped in) or what was that called? the Guldstrand 5 link or 6 bar that was the model for the C4 rear suspension?
The C4 is a Monster track car. An unbelievable performer. THere isn't really anything I would want to drive at the track after driving a full race C4, except maybe an LG speedvision car or C6R... You get the picture.
Being on the other side of this equation, having a car, trailer, truck, lots of specialized parts, a finicky car that requires lots of set up and maintenence, 25 gallons of 110 oct. Race gas per weekend (at $6 per gallon), a full set of tires each race weekend.
A triple disc clutch that can barely drive around the paddock to hold the 550 hp. endless set up and maintenence, popping $9000 motors with a only a few events on them... I could sell my car for a lightly modded C5, have a second set of wheels to swap on for track events and be done with it.
He is the summation of my race season this year:
1st race: found a crack in the head before getting on track, never made it out.
2nd race: drove 12 hours to the track, lost a valve during qualifying and killed the motor, need new heads and pistons. price tag, $3500 so far.
unemployed for the time being
Race season over.
I don't need to wring every tenth out of a street car, just go out and have fun turning fast laps at the track. Don't trash your nice street car, just have fun and drive it home.
Don't take stupid chances and stay out of the wall, have a nice drive home after.
Keep it simple and have fun.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
Well i bought some 17x9" steel rims with 5" backspace. I'm looking for some tires to run on them. I'm thinking 275/40/17. I don't know if i want to put a dedicated race slick on or just use a street tire. I thought i could pick up some takeoffs from a newer vette for free but no luck so far.
My first track day will be April 8th and hopefully i can get some video for you guys.
My first track day will be April 8th and hopefully i can get some video for you guys.
Last edited by turtlevette; Feb 26, 2006 at 10:35 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,362
Likes: 7
From: Brazos TX
Cruise-In IV Veteran
Cruise-In V Veteran
What kind of wheels did you buy? I think new, sticky tires are going to make a huge improvement. On anorther car I went from some old, worn out tires to Kumhos and the difference was astounding. I was able to flat foot it thru corners that, before, I was braking on entry. I'm working on the engine today and I hope to have it running in the next few days. Then all I need are a few break-in miles and hopefully I'll be at the track mid-March.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 2
From: Allen TX
Another idea to lose weight off the front end. I lost a considerable amount of weight by going to a fixed headlight design. I haven't measured the weight of the stock headlight parts yet but my new headlight design is a total of 2 pounds for each side.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,416
Likes: 1
From: NC,USA
Crossed flags:
Is your front spoiler only for cooling purposes?
I'm under the impression that for drag reduction the spoiler has to extend far enough to the sides to spill air down the sides... diverting it away from the underside of the car.
Then again, I havent built one... or tested one... so I'm all ears!
Is your front spoiler only for cooling purposes?
I'm under the impression that for drag reduction the spoiler has to extend far enough to the sides to spill air down the sides... diverting it away from the underside of the car.
Then again, I havent built one... or tested one... so I'm all ears!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,434
Likes: 0
St. Jude Donor '07
Originally Posted by ZD75blue
Crossed flags:
Is your front spoiler only for cooling purposes?
I'm under the impression that for drag reduction the spoiler has to extend far enough to the sides to spill air down the sides... diverting it away from the underside of the car.
Then again, I havent built one... or tested one... so I'm all ears!
Is your front spoiler only for cooling purposes?
I'm under the impression that for drag reduction the spoiler has to extend far enough to the sides to spill air down the sides... diverting it away from the underside of the car.
Then again, I havent built one... or tested one... so I'm all ears!
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 2
From: Allen TX
Originally Posted by ZD75blue
Crossed flags:
Is your front spoiler only for cooling purposes?
I'm under the impression that for drag reduction the spoiler has to extend far enough to the sides to spill air down the sides... diverting it away from the underside of the car.
Then again, I havent built one... or tested one... so I'm all ears!
Is your front spoiler only for cooling purposes?
I'm under the impression that for drag reduction the spoiler has to extend far enough to the sides to spill air down the sides... diverting it away from the underside of the car.
Then again, I havent built one... or tested one... so I'm all ears!
Yea from what I have been reading the best front spoiler would be as far forward as possible and be as wide as the main body of the car. The last time I had the car up above 100mph the front end feel did seem a lot better than without the front spoiler but that just might be in my head.