All,

Status: '69 L46 Winter Engine Refresh Project (STARTED)

Just wanted to let y'all know I finally shipped the q-jet carb and point-style distributor off to Lars for refresh. Failed to remove the tach drive gear as it was stubborn and would not back out of the cable attachment @ distributor. I'll be removing that item tonight hopefully and shipping to Lars Tuesday morning to allow him to fully set up the distributor as he refreshes.

Focus is refresh of both items. Overall performance is acceptable with a potentially sticking throttle @ idle issue. Wanting to ensure both are in good fitness as I proceed with further work on the top end including cyl head refresh (port match/bowl blend/refresh of the 186 castings), and the associated Cyl head gaskets and intake gaskets and any other related items that appear necessary as I pull off the intake and heads.

One decision I need to make is whether to go with a stock-style metal shim cyl head gasket or with the (.039 compressed) Fel-Pro cyl head gaskets. No apparent detonation issues but will be looking at the heads/valves, pistons and cylinder walls for any appearance of that. If 'ok', will probably go with the replacement for the OEM style steel shim head gasket.

I will install the rebuilt carb/distrib and tune.

Then, will take the L46 to the garage of a buddy that has graciously offered use of his heated garage/workshop with in-floor lift to perform the cylinder head refresh and also to remove the battery cable from the starter to the battery box (need the lift to get up under for the battery cable swap). For some reason, somebody along the way (bubba?) installed a cable that is too short (OR incorrectly routed) and caused the battery to have to be situated such that the side posts face forward to reach that cable. So, the battery is not secured (does not fasten as it should to the battery hold-down). Have a set of cables from Volunteer Vettes waiting for install with the OEM-style hold down kit.

May also take the opportunity, with engine coolant removed for the cyl heads, to replace the hoses for radiator and heater, belts AND install that power steering conversion that I have in-box from Van Steel. Will also be re-routing the spark plug wires so they run through the heat shields attached to the underside of the engine and up to the spark plugs (plugs recently replaced). Prior owner, replaced the wires but just rested them along the fenders/steering shaft; so nothing keeping them from moving around and possibly getting singed on the exhaust manifolds.

Will also do a cursory inspection of the, underside of engine, bell housing/trans/shifter linkage, drive shaft, rear diff and front/rear suspension/bushings to see if I need to give some attention to those areas; am sure (hopeful?) will find something there to add to my TO DO list. Installed Van Steel-rebuilt half shafts, t-arm assemblies, rotors, calipers and associated hardware in Spring '05 so that area should be good (may replace the spring-end bushings as I did not replace them during that procedure).

I'll post an update as I progress further with the L46 refresh.

P.S. Am taking the '80 L48 over to same buddy (targetting Tues; tomorrow) for replacement of the passenger side pushrods. As some may recall, I've had valvetrain noise which we appear to have isolated to incorrect pushrod length (causing some clearance/adjustment issues apparently). Am removing the Summit pushrods with the press-fit ends with a hardened set of Speed Pro one-piece pushrods. Replaced the driver's side pushrods couple weeks ago and sound declined considerably. No further projects planned for the '80 beyond perhaps a long-delayed rear speaker enclosure for the Jensen 6x9 triax speakers that have sat loose and unsightly (flopping around in that area) since I first bought the L48 AND replacement of the proper saddle/tan color matched (not painted) parking brake cover. Bought a paint-matched item when I installed the fresh interior in late '04 and the saddle/tan paint quickly chipped away to expose the black rubber material; does not complement the new seats, door panels and carpetting.

 

don't forget update's

 

I have Ted's parts sitting on my workbench. His stuff looks pretty good, but is in need of overhaul - I can see a few problems. I think we can make some improvement here....

 

Lars, sounds great.

 

Lars,

Have removed the tach gear from cable and shipping to you via USPS today (no insurance this time). Had to grip the assembly with a wrench to separate so few threads show flattening but the threads should cleanup/work with no issues.

 

No need. New parts are procured to get the distributor assembled correctly.

 

Latest update from Lars:

Your parts are currently "up", and I'm going through the inspection and cleanup phase. The carb has multiple significant problems, and it is missing several parts. All the issues can be corrected, but the most severe is the fact that the inlet threads are completely stripped out and the inlet was bonded in place with JBWeld. The process and costs for repairing this are outlined in my info below - would you like me to proceed with the inlet thread repair process?

Also, since the carb did not have an inlet filter in it due to the damaged inlet, are you running an in-line filter on the car? I will be installing a correct filter in the carb, so it is important that you do not have another filter installed anywhere in the system. If you have an in-line filter that you want to retain for any reason, I will delete the in-carb filter to avoid the problems associated with running double filters. I recommend running the in-carb filter and not using an in-line.

If you would like to proceed with the inlet thread repair, I will have the carb completed by Friday, and the distributor will be set up and completed over the weekend. If our snow weather clears up by then, I will have the carb tested and set up over the weekend for shipment of everything back to you on Monday.

----------------------------------------

Have instructed Lars to proceed with the inlet repair and that I will use the OEM in-line filter installed.

 

Progress update from Lars:

"Ted -
Carb is pretty much completed and set up. I have not yet done the test run on it for final checkout, and will do so Friday or Saturday depending on weather conditions.

Here's what I found on the carb:

1. Stripped inlet threads. The inlet had had been glued into the float bowl and sealed with JBWeld. I have to admit it's pretty good stuff: I had to use a 1/2" drive impact gun on it to get it out. The inlet has now been correctly repaired with a stainless steel thread insert that will allow use of the stock fuel filter and the stock inlet nut. I have not installed the filter per your request.

2. Secondary lockout lever missing. This prevents inadvertent opening of the secondaries (with associated high cylinder pressures) when the engine is cold. Many people remove the lever thinking that it is preventing correct secondary operation. I like to use them and have them in place. I have installed a good used one off of another carb.

3. Bowl vent reed and accel pump attach wire missing. This is not critical for operation, and I have not been able to locate a good used pair of parts at this time. I'll stop by my used Q-Jet source tomorrow afternoon and see if I can locate these parts for you. If not, I will set the carb up without them and make it look good.

4. Secondary throttles set to open over-center. This actually causes a decrease in secondary airflow and creates the potential for a bog going into the secondary side due to premature secondary opening. It has been corrected and adjusted right.

5. Throttle shaft choke unloader tang bent forward and inward, making unloader inoperable, and causing the throttle to stick in the open position. The tang has been restored to its correct position, and this will solve your sticky throttle problem.

6. Secondary throttle connect rod bent. This would cause early opening of the secondaries with the potential for a bog. The rod has been repaired.

7. Power Piston stop lever bent down, causing power piston to ride too deep. This would lean out the car excessively at cruise speed, producing poor throttle response. The tang has been adjusted to its correct position, and the power piston has been raised.

8. Float level too high. Float was set at .200" - should be .375". New float has been correctly set. Float level may have been raised to compensate for the lean power piston position.

9. Idle mixture screws not balanced. The screws will be correctly set up during testing.

10. Throttle plate loose. Would have caused a vacuum leak. This was corrected upon re-assembly of the carb.

11. Fast idle cam had been cut, modified & destroyed. The modification would have caused the cam to not retract the secondary lockout lever, which may have been why the lever was removed. I have replaced the fast idle cam with a good used original, and the lockout system is operating correctly.

I'll keep you posted on test results.

The distributor is torn down and ready for cleanup - should have it completed and tested over the weekend."

 

TedH,
You're a lucky guy having Lars so near to help you. I wish we had someone like him Down Under for all the Holdens (and some Chevs!) that were factory fitted with Qjets. Must be at least a million Holden V8's fitted with Qjets over the years, many of them still running, but not as good as they could be.

So many people here have tossed the Qjets and fitted Holleys that it's damn near impossible to find someone who knows anything about the Rochester carbs. Keep us posted with your results.

Regards from Down Under

aussiejohn

 

You are right. Even my buddy 'Mike' has moved to Holleys and he is a big block guru. I wish he had just a portion of Lars' capabilities with q-jets and points-style distributors but Mike is and always will be a 'motor' man.

This is the second q-jet I've sent to Lars. My '80 L48's q-jet needed attention a few years back and Lars brought it back to excellent tune.

I'm happy to be a 'return customer'

 

One of the things to take note of when looking at the list of problems with Ted's carb is that none of these problems would have been solved by simply cleaning the carb up and installing a "rebuild kit." And Ted's carb wasn't in that bad shape...

In fact, more and more, I'm receiving and seeing carbs that are seriously screwed up. I just repaired a carb for a Forum member in Idaho. Someone had installed jets 9 sizes smaller than stock, and then corrected it by installing metering rods 15 sizes smaller than stock. Problem was, they installed the pre-75 metering rods (long rods) in a '77 carb (which requires the short rods), and then corrected it by raising the power piston stop up until it came unseated out of the float bowl.

20 years ago, it was easy to rebuild carbs, because you could pull one apart and put it back together the same way it came apart. That's not the case anymore: You have to be very careful about the setup, and you need to know what's correct and what's not. You have to be able to identify missing parts and incorrect parts, and you have to be able to spot when Bubba has made a mod. And it's important to have a stash of used parts and carbs for use as "spares." And of greatest importance is that you have access to the correct jetting & component specs for any carb you work on: The majority of the carbs I see have had jetting mods that are not correct or appropriate.

 

TedH, Great thread..keep the updates coming. Would be great to find out how much better she will perform...


LARS!!!! Hey how many beers is it gonna take to get you over here to the UK???

 

 

My last note in response to Lars' status:

"Lars,

I anticipate the car will run MUCH better. Am amazed at the extent of carb
changes/adjustments made by prior owners but, after 37 years and untold
owners, perhaps that is par for the course. Very glad the carb made it to
your capable hands and is returning to its orig, intended state of tune.

Once you have a $ figure for the service, let me know and I will put the
check in the mail."

And Lars' latest carb update:

"Ted -
Carb is on the test car. I have fired it up and have set choke, fast idle, hot idle, and idle mixtures. It's running great, but I have not had it out for the actual test drive yet due to 0-degree weather and ice on the roads. I'll get it on the road over the weekend, and should have the distributor done at that time, too. I'll keep you posted on test results.
Lars"

 

Ted -
Got the distributor together and set up. It, too, had some issues:

1. The upper bushing was not in alignment with the lower bushing, causing the mainshaft to be in a tight bind. This excess torque required to turn the shaft had worn the lower gear shim over half-way through, trashing the shim. I have aligned the bushings so the shaft now turns freely and installed new gear shims. It appears the upper bushing had been replaced at some point in time, and was never installed correctly.

2. Broken grease well seal and dried out upper grease well. Seal has been replaced and the well has been re-packed as part of the rebuild process.

3. Missing primary wire grommet allowing water into the distributor. I have installed an OEM NOS grommet and removed the corrosion caused by the water.

4. Missing advance stop bushing allowing too much advance. I have installed a brass limit bushing.

5. Tight stock springs not allowing full advance until 5000 rpm. I have installed a custom set of springs that will give you a quick curve, and will return your OEM springs to you.

6. Very long vacuum advance curve. I have installed a better suited vacuum advance control unit.

7. Once I had the basic rebuild and setup done, I ran the distributor on my Sun distributor machine. It ran really well, but once in a while I noticed that the dwell would simply peg out and the distributor would stop firing momentarily. I traced the problem to an internal break in your primary lead wire: The wire has a "stiff" section to it, and it is broken inside the insulation to cause a random intermittent problem. I will be locating a new wire for it today, installing it, and re-testing.

I am still trying to find the last missing pieces for your carb's bowl vent system. I'm heading out for a test drive with it this morning: It's -7 degrees, and I'm driving with the top down. These guys who put their cars away for winter are p***ies... I'll tag you back with results."

My response to Lars:

"Lars, Your last comment made me chuckle. I too like to take my '69 and '80 out every chance I get; not only to enjoy them but I am a firm believer that some of the best maintenance and solution to many quirks/problems is to drive these old cars even when it gets colder.

P.S. I picked up an '01 Harley Dyna Super Glide this past Tues and when weather permitted on Weds, I put on some warm clothes (and full helmet) and took her for a 45-50 mile ride too. Had the '80 out on Thurs getting it titled and registered in Ohio."

 

this thread does nothing but confirm for me that I have ABSOLUTELY no idea about all this stuff. Lars is definitely a master - and I just hope we can make the May-timeframe TFB work in Virginia. My car was purchased with an HEI upgrade and the Q-jet long gone. I think it is a Holley on there now.

But wow - what a tremendous amount of expertise he has!

And, the emails you are posting are doing nothing but confirming his top-notch customer service!

 

Ted's carb didn't want to submit without a fight....

The carb failed the test run this morning due to 2 problems:

1. The carb acted the same for me as it had been for Ted: It did not want to return to the same idle setting unless I tapped the throttle. Turns out, the throttle shaft bores in the throttle plate were completely worn out, and the throttles were cocking and sticking due to the misalignment created by the sloppy bores. I ended up tearing the carb down again, pulling out the primary shaft, and installing bushings on both ends. This solved the problem, and the carb is now returning to idle perfectly.

2. The carb developed a bad stumble about 5 minutes into the test drive. I quick inspection showed that there was no accel pump shot. So I tore the carb down once again to reveal that Echlin had put a non-ethanol-compatible accel pump in the kit I had bought. The pump (made from butyl rubber) had swolled up and seized in the pump bore. I have seen this problem several times, and it frustrates me that a carb kit manufacturer would sell parts that are not compatible with modern fuels. Installing a correct pump fixed the problem, and we now have a good-running carb for Ted!

I also got the new distributor primary wire installed in his distributor, and this solved the problem with the erratic dwell: I ran the distrubutor for quite a while on the Sun machine, and I was unable to get it to hickup at all while tugging on wires and pushing things around. Even though Echlin puts some lousy accel pumps in some of their carb kits, they do make a nice set of points with the CS-786 contact set: I ran the distributor up through 6500 rpm with rock steady dwell and no point bounce. Cool stuff.

Ted's shipment is going out on Monday - we'll have to have him report how the parts run on his car: If he doesn't like 'em, I'll take them back and run them on my '64...

 

Makes me want to have a carb problem. Just amazing to see this kind of craftsmanship in this day and age of modern technology. It's sad that in a lot of cases we have repair by replacement until the problem goes away....I mean that in the sense of total part replacement. You are truly an automotive Doctor and on top of it you’re a beer drinker so why you don’t have an automotive show is beyond me. “Lars on Cars”

 

lars, can you tune new carbs..

 

Final Carb/distrib update from Lars:

"Ted -
Very cool with the Super Glide - glad to see you got it out and rode it!

The carb fought me to the end: It failed the test ride this morning for 2 reasons:

1. I was able to duplicate your sticky throttle symptom. In looking at things closely, your throttle shaft bushings were completely shot, allowing the throttle blades to **** in the bores from the return spring pressure. This was causing the erratic idle speed upon closing the throttles. Normally, the Q-Jets are a little loose in the throttle shafts even on a new carb, so I did not get concerned when I noticed the looseness during the rebuild. But yours were too loose, on both driver's side and passenger side, allowing the entire shaft to get cocked and stuck in the bore. I ended up having to pull the shaft, ream the throttle body, and install 2 shaft bushings. I gave you 2 for the price of 1 to try to limit your costs on this a bit. The shaft is now perfect, with no play at all, and the carb returns to the set idle speed consistently.

2. The carb developed a severe stumble after a few minutes of driving. A quick check showed no accel pump shot. In tearing the carb down again, the accel pump was seized and locked in the bore. I have had this happen on a few occasions before: The Echlin kit had an accelerator pump that was not compatible with ethanol-additive fuel. This caused the pump rubber to swell, and the pump seized. I was able to obtain a correct ethanol-compatible accel pump, and this cured the problem.

The carb is running exceptionally well. I was not able to find a core carb with the right donor parts to install your vent system (used in '68 and '69 only), so I'll ship the carb back to you with these parts missing. The carb looks visually correct, and I have installed the vent block gasket to prevent any leakage. This has no effect at all on performance or operation. If I come across the parts you need, I'll kit them up and send them to you. There is no reason to be concerned about the missing parts for operation of the carb.

I got a new primary lead wire installed in the distributor, and this cured the erratic dwell problem. I've run it extensively on the Sun machine, and the thing is rock steady now.

Everything is ready to ship, and I'll get it all out to you on Monday.

Lars"

I'll be getting the bill from Lars and putting the check in the mail to him ASAP for mail pickup on Monday.