509 or 540 BBC ?
08-12-2006, 07:00 AM
#1
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509 or 540 BBC ?
Looks like I am going with an aftermarket block and retire the old Gen IV 454.
Would it be a better idea to run 4.00" stroke with a 4.5" bore 509, or a 4.25" stroke 4.5" bore 540 for 1/4 mile track?
We are probably going to reuse the Canfield 310 heads and a slightly bigger cam on either motor. The current cam is 714 lift and 270/260 dur at .50 with 110* center.
Right now the car weighs about 4500 lbs. We cross the traps at about 7200 RPM at 135 MPH with 4.33 gears and 28" tires. The trans is 400 Turbo with 5800 stall converter.
The reason I ask is because some say to stay with the shorter stroke to make more power at the higher RPM's that we are crossing the line at.
Thanks for your input.
Would it be a better idea to run 4.00" stroke with a 4.5" bore 509, or a 4.25" stroke 4.5" bore 540 for 1/4 mile track?
We are probably going to reuse the Canfield 310 heads and a slightly bigger cam on either motor. The current cam is 714 lift and 270/260 dur at .50 with 110* center.
Right now the car weighs about 4500 lbs. We cross the traps at about 7200 RPM at 135 MPH with 4.33 gears and 28" tires. The trans is 400 Turbo with 5800 stall converter.
The reason I ask is because some say to stay with the shorter stroke to make more power at the higher RPM's that we are crossing the line at.
Thanks for your input.
08-12-2006, 09:49 AM
#2
Safety Car
Interesting dilemma. At first glance the obvious answer would be the 540, however due to the smallish tire and higher rpms I can see a good argument for the 509. That being said a lot of guys are running 10.5W's with three stages on a 632, I would go with the 540. You will be able to figure out how to deal with any potential traction problems off the line with timers, etc for the nitrous. You will want those extra cubes for the top end. Do not worry about a properly built 540 (555??) at 7500+ rpms. My buddies Top Comp 555 goes through the lights at 8500+ 7.92 at 2400 lbs, on the motor with ported Dart 320's and a tunnel ram....huge cam, 15 to 1.
Why not a 555 or even a 565 ??
I would put some money into the heads if I went bigger than a 509, get them ported and they will be fine.
Aluminum rods ??
Why not a 555 or even a 565 ??
I would put some money into the heads if I went bigger than a 509, get them ported and they will be fine.
Aluminum rods ??
Last edited by 69 N.O.X. RATT; 08-12-2006 at 09:52 AM.
08-12-2006, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 69 N.O.X. RATT
Interesting dilemma. At first glance the obvious answer would be the 540, however due to the smallish tire and higher rpms I can see a good argument for the 509. That being said a lot of guys are running 10.5W's with three stages on a 632, I would go with the 540. You will be able to figure out how to deal with any potential traction problems off the line with timers, etc for the nitrous. You will want those extra cubes for the top end. Do not worry about a properly built 540 (555??) at 7500+ rpms. My buddies Top Comp 555 goes through the lights at 8500+ 7.92 at 2400 lbs, on the motor with ported Dart 320's and a tunnel ram....huge cam, 15 to 1.
Why not a 555 or even a 565 ??
I would put some money into the heads if I went bigger than a 509, get them ported and they will be fine.
Aluminum rods ??
Why not a 555 or even a 565 ??
I would put some money into the heads if I went bigger than a 509, get them ported and they will be fine.
Aluminum rods ??
I will probably have CFE do the heads if I go the 540.
Going with much more cubes I think the heads would be a limiting factor.
I am going to use the Oliver billet rods (6.385) that I have. I am a little afraid of Eagle for a crank and will probably use a Callies Dragon Slayer for 4.25" stroke.
If I go with a Merlin III block would you recommend the splayed caps, or do you think the nodular caps would be strong enough?
08-12-2006, 12:42 PM
#5
Safety Car
Originally Posted by red79vette454
I will probably have CFE do the heads if I go the 540.
Going with much more cubes I think the heads would be a limiting factor.
I am going to use the Oliver billet rods (6.385) that I have. I am a little afraid of Eagle for a crank and will probably use a Callies Dragon Slayer for 4.25" stroke.
If I go with a Merlin III block would you recommend the splayed caps, or do you think the nodular caps would be strong enough?
Going with much more cubes I think the heads would be a limiting factor.
I am going to use the Oliver billet rods (6.385) that I have. I am a little afraid of Eagle for a crank and will probably use a Callies Dragon Slayer for 4.25" stroke.
If I go with a Merlin III block would you recommend the splayed caps, or do you think the nodular caps would be strong enough?
As far as the heads it all depends on much they port them. If you tell them they are going on a 7500+ rpm 565, they can make them work. If you are going to go with the 540 I see no reason not to get 15-25 free cubic inches (upwards of 35 hp!) just for the cost of the machine work.
I am sure the nodular caps would work fine, but I like to over build the bottom end. My new block has splayed caps.
How much total power do you want to make ??
08-12-2006, 12:53 PM
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[QUOTE=69 N.O.X. RATT]Oliver...great rods no problems there........ I feel the same way about the Eagle stuff, but know of a lot of guys making lots of power and doing fine with it...
As far as the heads it all depends on much they port them. If you tell them they are going on a 7500+ rpm 565, they can make them work. If you are going to go with the 540 I see no reason not to get 15-25 free cubic inches (upwards of 35 hp!) just for the cost of the machine work.
I am sure the nodular caps would work fine, but I like to over build the bottom end. My new block has splayed caps.
How much total power do you want to make ??
[/QUOTE
I'd like to see 850 to 900 HP on motor. Think this is possible?
As far as the heads it all depends on much they port them. If you tell them they are going on a 7500+ rpm 565, they can make them work. If you are going to go with the 540 I see no reason not to get 15-25 free cubic inches (upwards of 35 hp!) just for the cost of the machine work.
I am sure the nodular caps would work fine, but I like to over build the bottom end. My new block has splayed caps.
How much total power do you want to make ??
[/QUOTE
I'd like to see 850 to 900 HP on motor. Think this is possible?
08-12-2006, 12:59 PM
#7
Safety Car
[QUOTE=red79vette454]
850-900, no problem....ported heads, 13.5 to 1, 275-280+ @ .050,.750 lift, Super Victor, probably an 1150 (I like Pro-Systems, or SMI)...and then comes the nitrous
If you check Rehermorrisons web site you can see their 540-565's and see what parts and specs they use to make 900-1000 hp.
Originally Posted by 69 N.O.X. RATT
Oliver...great rods no problems there........ I feel the same way about the Eagle stuff, but know of a lot of guys making lots of power and doing fine with it...
As far as the heads it all depends on much they port them. If you tell them they are going on a 7500+ rpm 565, they can make them work. If you are going to go with the 540 I see no reason not to get 15-25 free cubic inches (upwards of 35 hp!) just for the cost of the machine work.
I am sure the nodular caps would work fine, but I like to over build the bottom end. My new block has splayed caps.
How much total power do you want to make ??
[/QUOTE
I'd like to see 850 to 900 HP on motor. Think this is possible?
As far as the heads it all depends on much they port them. If you tell them they are going on a 7500+ rpm 565, they can make them work. If you are going to go with the 540 I see no reason not to get 15-25 free cubic inches (upwards of 35 hp!) just for the cost of the machine work.
I am sure the nodular caps would work fine, but I like to over build the bottom end. My new block has splayed caps.
How much total power do you want to make ??
[/QUOTE
I'd like to see 850 to 900 HP on motor. Think this is possible?
If you check Rehermorrisons web site you can see their 540-565's and see what parts and specs they use to make 900-1000 hp.
08-12-2006, 01:15 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
I don't want to drag you guys off topic but do either of you have video of your cars launching etc...
I have a 598 that's 10.5/1 with a hydraulic roller cam and 355 dart cnc'd heads. I wanted a streetable cruiser but with big HP. It dyno'd 819. At 13/1 and a big solid roller you will meet your HP goals.
I feel fortunate to have had 427Hotrod advising me to go with bigger heads as I don't think it would have made the 819 HP with the cam I chose for street use.
Jim had told me about a good article recently on the 509's. I don't recall which mag...maybe he can chime in.
I have a 598 that's 10.5/1 with a hydraulic roller cam and 355 dart cnc'd heads. I wanted a streetable cruiser but with big HP. It dyno'd 819. At 13/1 and a big solid roller you will meet your HP goals.
I feel fortunate to have had 427Hotrod advising me to go with bigger heads as I don't think it would have made the 819 HP with the cam I chose for street use.
Jim had told me about a good article recently on the 509's. I don't recall which mag...maybe he can chime in.
Last edited by pef427; 08-13-2006 at 01:03 PM.
08-12-2006, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Mouse
I would like to know what you are running that weighs 4500 ??
08-12-2006, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by pef427
I don't want to drag you guys off topic but do either of you have video of your cars launching etc...
I have a 598 that's 10.5/1 with a mechanical roller cam and 355 dart cnc'd heads. I wanted a streetable cruiser but with big HP. It dyno'd 819. At 13/1 and a big solid roller you will meet your HP goals.
I feel fortunate to have had 427Hotrod advising me to go with bigger heads as I don't think it would have made the 819 HP with the cam I chose for street use.
Jim had told me about a good article recently on the 509's. I don't recall which mag...maybe he can chime in.
I have a 598 that's 10.5/1 with a mechanical roller cam and 355 dart cnc'd heads. I wanted a streetable cruiser but with big HP. It dyno'd 819. At 13/1 and a big solid roller you will meet your HP goals.
I feel fortunate to have had 427Hotrod advising me to go with bigger heads as I don't think it would have made the 819 HP with the cam I chose for street use.
Jim had told me about a good article recently on the 509's. I don't recall which mag...maybe he can chime in.
08-12-2006, 02:58 PM
#13
Safety Car
I keep saying, this but I have video coming shortly. Here is a pic. It went a 1.18 60' on this launch.
John
08-13-2006, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pef427
I don't want to drag you guys off topic but do either of you have video of your cars launching etc...
I have a 598 that's 10.5/1 with a mechanical roller cam and 355 dart cnc'd heads. I wanted a streetable cruiser but with big HP. It dyno'd 819. At 13/1 and a big solid roller you will meet your HP goals.
I feel fortunate to have had 427Hotrod advising me to go with bigger heads as I don't think it would have made the 819 HP with the cam I chose for street use.
Jim had told me about a good article recently on the 509's. I don't recall which mag...maybe he can chime in.
I have a 598 that's 10.5/1 with a mechanical roller cam and 355 dart cnc'd heads. I wanted a streetable cruiser but with big HP. It dyno'd 819. At 13/1 and a big solid roller you will meet your HP goals.
I feel fortunate to have had 427Hotrod advising me to go with bigger heads as I don't think it would have made the 819 HP with the cam I chose for street use.
Jim had told me about a good article recently on the 509's. I don't recall which mag...maybe he can chime in.
08-13-2006, 07:57 AM
#15
Drifting
Not to throw the topic off, but are all your mountain motor guys running a Tom's 12-bolt or are some of you running beefed factory diff's? Mine will see very few trips to the strip so I decided to go the other way with a 3.75 stroke and 4.600 bore for 499 cubes. I should be in the neighborhood of 700 hp and 650 - 675 ft lbs with a solid roller and some Pro Topline 320's. Mine is a 4-speed car and I definitely wanted something to kill a bit of bottom end. I'm beefing the rear end as much as possible thru Van Steel and won't do any high rpm clutch dumps.
My local race shop uses Dart Big M blocks on all their builds as they had a few problems early on with some of the Merlins. I've watched 'em spray 565's on the dyno and make well over 1500 hp with no problems, bearings and caps all look fine at freshen time. They've never used one with billet mains and have never had problems with the nodular iron cap stuff.
I'm with 69 N.O.X. RATT - go ahead and bore it to at least 4.560. These things are made out of very hard cast iron and don't wear like a production block. You have plenty of room for future rebuilds and freshenings with a 555.
And to think, 15 years ago a 496 was about as bad as anybody could afford and now street/strip cars with 540's are becoming more and more common.
My local race shop uses Dart Big M blocks on all their builds as they had a few problems early on with some of the Merlins. I've watched 'em spray 565's on the dyno and make well over 1500 hp with no problems, bearings and caps all look fine at freshen time. They've never used one with billet mains and have never had problems with the nodular iron cap stuff.
I'm with 69 N.O.X. RATT - go ahead and bore it to at least 4.560. These things are made out of very hard cast iron and don't wear like a production block. You have plenty of room for future rebuilds and freshenings with a 555.
And to think, 15 years ago a 496 was about as bad as anybody could afford and now street/strip cars with 540's are becoming more and more common.
08-13-2006, 01:19 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by red79vette454
Is that 598 a tall deck ? Just wondering how that fit in your 68. We've barely got enough room to fit a short deck. It is just a hair from hitting the firewall.
Thanks to VETMANIAC emailing me start to finish "Fiberglass 101" directions the repair even looks un-Bubba-fied.
08-13-2006, 05:25 PM
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Now THIS is fun discussion!!!!
I would have to lean to a 540/565 or go crazy to a 598 to haul 3500 lbs, even with the juice on.
A 4.500/3.76 or a 4.500/4.00 combo is a 8000 rpm type setup to really run well. You see lots of them in the N/A world and they are killer with some RPM. That black C-2 that was in the Pump Gas drags a couple of years ago runs a 4.500/3.76 combo and makes 840hp@8100 rpm N/A using heavily ported Dart 310's, .800+ cam, titanium valves, 93 octane and 8600 rpm shifts with a 5 speed. He only weighs in the 3000-3100 lb range with driver but runs 9.20's@149 mph on 10" tires.
You can also look at Steve Hoch in the laster Hot Rod. He has been doing the Pump Gas Drag and Drag Week deals with a 540 using a 260/270 .700 or so cam with seriously ported Canfield 310's. he's hitting 8.90-9.0s at 149mph with is 540 @3500+ lbs.
So it's going to be a 13+ compression motor? That opens lots of opportunity for real power!!
You might need to regear it some too once you add cubes and power.
I think if I was going to buy today, I would likely use the Dart block. They weren't made years ago when I built my 540. I've had fine luck with my Merlin though and they HAVE added some neat features to them since then..pretty much mimmicking what Dart had done. So I'm sure the new Merlins are fine. I know of a Merlin iron cap motor running N/A that is making 1000 hp on regular heads with no issues. But nitrous etc are reasons to add the steel caps I would think.
Just out of curiosity..L88Plus..what issues did they see on the earlier Merlins and what changed to eliminate the issues?
Most folks are using Tom's centersections. But I'm a little weird and buit a Dana 60 into an IRS based on some old 70's Hot Rod magaine articles. We even found one of those ancient ones from a racer when he converted his car to solid axle. Interesting part is that he had bought the Dana IRS used from another racer 10-15 years before, never even broke a ring gear in it.....and when he went solid to cut weight and get a better suspension design...he had slowed down a tenth and hadn't found it yet!!
We bought it with all the unused spare parts from the first owner and it will end up soon under a 632" street C-3 hopefully!
Unless Pef427 talks him out of it!! You know...we could have made LOTS of $$ on that deal to him!! We're such nice guys!!
JIM
I would have to lean to a 540/565 or go crazy to a 598 to haul 3500 lbs, even with the juice on.
A 4.500/3.76 or a 4.500/4.00 combo is a 8000 rpm type setup to really run well. You see lots of them in the N/A world and they are killer with some RPM. That black C-2 that was in the Pump Gas drags a couple of years ago runs a 4.500/3.76 combo and makes 840hp@8100 rpm N/A using heavily ported Dart 310's, .800+ cam, titanium valves, 93 octane and 8600 rpm shifts with a 5 speed. He only weighs in the 3000-3100 lb range with driver but runs 9.20's@149 mph on 10" tires.
You can also look at Steve Hoch in the laster Hot Rod. He has been doing the Pump Gas Drag and Drag Week deals with a 540 using a 260/270 .700 or so cam with seriously ported Canfield 310's. he's hitting 8.90-9.0s at 149mph with is 540 @3500+ lbs.
So it's going to be a 13+ compression motor? That opens lots of opportunity for real power!!
You might need to regear it some too once you add cubes and power.
I think if I was going to buy today, I would likely use the Dart block. They weren't made years ago when I built my 540. I've had fine luck with my Merlin though and they HAVE added some neat features to them since then..pretty much mimmicking what Dart had done. So I'm sure the new Merlins are fine. I know of a Merlin iron cap motor running N/A that is making 1000 hp on regular heads with no issues. But nitrous etc are reasons to add the steel caps I would think.
Just out of curiosity..L88Plus..what issues did they see on the earlier Merlins and what changed to eliminate the issues?
Most folks are using Tom's centersections. But I'm a little weird and buit a Dana 60 into an IRS based on some old 70's Hot Rod magaine articles. We even found one of those ancient ones from a racer when he converted his car to solid axle. Interesting part is that he had bought the Dana IRS used from another racer 10-15 years before, never even broke a ring gear in it.....and when he went solid to cut weight and get a better suspension design...he had slowed down a tenth and hadn't found it yet!!
We bought it with all the unused spare parts from the first owner and it will end up soon under a 632" street C-3 hopefully!
Unless Pef427 talks him out of it!! You know...we could have made LOTS of $$ on that deal to him!! We're such nice guys!!
JIM
08-13-2006, 07:06 PM
#19
Safety Car
Jim,
No doubt that Dana 60 monster you built is FAR stronger than any Toms 12 bolt. The ring and pinion gears in those Dana's are Huge !! Somebody could make some money off those!!!! Jim's Dana 60 conversions and installation !!!
Ya know...... I thought about the tall deck route for his motor also, but I am thinking that with the smaller tire, conventional heads and nitrous, the 4.25 stroke would be easier to get down the track....and still be able to pull the top end rpms. I wonder if a 4.5 in. stroke might be a lot more finicky off the line with his set up. With the amount of power a 555-565 on nitrous will make it will be a challenge to keep it hooked to the 330 at least anyway.....then once it is you want it to pull like crazy. A 598-632 with a conventional head will be more likely to nose over....... Hmmmm 18 degree heads?? $$$$$$
John
No doubt that Dana 60 monster you built is FAR stronger than any Toms 12 bolt. The ring and pinion gears in those Dana's are Huge !! Somebody could make some money off those!!!! Jim's Dana 60 conversions and installation !!!
Ya know...... I thought about the tall deck route for his motor also, but I am thinking that with the smaller tire, conventional heads and nitrous, the 4.25 stroke would be easier to get down the track....and still be able to pull the top end rpms. I wonder if a 4.5 in. stroke might be a lot more finicky off the line with his set up. With the amount of power a 555-565 on nitrous will make it will be a challenge to keep it hooked to the 330 at least anyway.....then once it is you want it to pull like crazy. A 598-632 with a conventional head will be more likely to nose over....... Hmmmm 18 degree heads?? $$$$$$
John
08-13-2006, 07:46 PM
#20
Drifting
Jim, as I recall it was mostly porosity issues with the castings. I also saw one on the net that ripped the main webs out, caps attached. Claim was it was an 800hp engine and let go without warning. I'm sure Dart had a few issues with the first ones but they're ironed out now. I'd expect that World will have taken care of their issues as well. Had they not, I think your mill would have shown some definite issues as hard as you like to run it 
I'm glad to see info about the short stroke/big bore stuff. I have most of my stuff gathered for the build but I have a few parts I haven't decided on yet. My goal is to build an engine with the L88 as it's starting point. I decided a long time ago to go with the short stroke since 3 of the most legendary engines had similar strokes - the 426 hemi with 3.75, Ford's 427 at 3.78 and of course the bad to the bone 427. I think short stroke engines and Corvettes are a match made in heaven - horsepower engines and light cars. I have a Lunati Pro Mod that's .010/.010 and just ordered a set of Lunati Pro Mod rods. The other two characteristics I have decided to hold onto are solid cam and aluminum rectangular port heads. The cam will be a roller and I'd like to hang onto some of the characteristics of the cam - maybe the 264/270 @ .050 duration - Jim, I'd sure like your input on that since you've tested so many. I'm sure UDHarold could design me a bad street roller with those numbers and he'll probably get the call. I fell in love with the Pro Topline heads as soon as I'd checked out the first set and watched 'em flowed. 370cfm out of the box with 320 runners. All of 'em I've seen had a factory bowl blend which helps a lot. They outflowed a Dart 325 by enough to make the shop owner set up and take notice, for sure. Pistons are short dome SRP that'll put compression in the neighborhood of 11:1 which should be pump gas-able with a honker solid roller cam. At any rate, that's where the "L88Plus" tag came from, it'll be kinda like the "350 Chevy Should Have Built" that was the focus of a magazine article a few years back. This'll be my version of a 427 on steroids.
Biggest dilema I have right now is induction. I am really leaning toward a 4150 series carb, probably a 1000cfm rig from Pro Systems and a Victor Jr. If not that, I saw a polished/chromed RamJet a few days ago in the shop that really looked sweet - it was definitely something you don't see every day and would look most impressive along with a bunch of other polished billet parts. I just don't know that I can spring for close to 4K in parts alone to go fuel injected.
There's a good bit of difference in torque production between a 3.75 and 4.25 stroke cranks - that's another reason I went with the shorter stroke, hoping to make drivetrain parts live a bit longer. I guess we'll see IF I ever get this thing going. Right now my efforts are for the 565 I'll be putting in my crewcab dually. Just gotta mess with the folks that don't think a truck can be fast. My goal is to be the first guy I know that can take 4 of his friends for a 12-second ride. Anybody know how much hp that'll take with a 3-ton truck, plus passengers? Mine should be bumping 750hp with almost that much torque.
I'm glad to see info about the short stroke/big bore stuff. I have most of my stuff gathered for the build but I have a few parts I haven't decided on yet. My goal is to build an engine with the L88 as it's starting point. I decided a long time ago to go with the short stroke since 3 of the most legendary engines had similar strokes - the 426 hemi with 3.75, Ford's 427 at 3.78 and of course the bad to the bone 427. I think short stroke engines and Corvettes are a match made in heaven - horsepower engines and light cars. I have a Lunati Pro Mod that's .010/.010 and just ordered a set of Lunati Pro Mod rods. The other two characteristics I have decided to hold onto are solid cam and aluminum rectangular port heads. The cam will be a roller and I'd like to hang onto some of the characteristics of the cam - maybe the 264/270 @ .050 duration - Jim, I'd sure like your input on that since you've tested so many. I'm sure UDHarold could design me a bad street roller with those numbers and he'll probably get the call. I fell in love with the Pro Topline heads as soon as I'd checked out the first set and watched 'em flowed. 370cfm out of the box with 320 runners. All of 'em I've seen had a factory bowl blend which helps a lot. They outflowed a Dart 325 by enough to make the shop owner set up and take notice, for sure. Pistons are short dome SRP that'll put compression in the neighborhood of 11:1 which should be pump gas-able with a honker solid roller cam. At any rate, that's where the "L88Plus" tag came from, it'll be kinda like the "350 Chevy Should Have Built" that was the focus of a magazine article a few years back. This'll be my version of a 427 on steroids.
Biggest dilema I have right now is induction. I am really leaning toward a 4150 series carb, probably a 1000cfm rig from Pro Systems and a Victor Jr. If not that, I saw a polished/chromed RamJet a few days ago in the shop that really looked sweet - it was definitely something you don't see every day and would look most impressive along with a bunch of other polished billet parts. I just don't know that I can spring for close to 4K in parts alone to go fuel injected.
There's a good bit of difference in torque production between a 3.75 and 4.25 stroke cranks - that's another reason I went with the shorter stroke, hoping to make drivetrain parts live a bit longer. I guess we'll see IF I ever get this thing going. Right now my efforts are for the 565 I'll be putting in my crewcab dually. Just gotta mess with the folks that don't think a truck can be fast. My goal is to be the first guy I know that can take 4 of his friends for a 12-second ride. Anybody know how much hp that'll take with a 3-ton truck, plus passengers? Mine should be bumping 750hp with almost that much torque.
