Currently, I have 69 427-400 coupe with a 91 vintage 454 GenIV Bowtie block that is at 509cu.in. The hydraulic flat tappet cam was all done by 3800rpm and pulled only 305 hp but had 416 torque at the wheels with open chambered GM R-port iron heads (2.19 intake and 1.88 exhaust ports) and an early 70s 454/450 reg rise GM AL intake with Speed Demon 850. This was running long tube hooker headers into <2" diam chambered pipes. Mods since then were adding the hooker sides with 2.5" SS perfed-pipe inserts and adding the L88 aircleaner setup with functional airbox to the L88 hood. Also added the Tremec 5 spd with 2.72 first gear to go with my 3.08s.

I want as much power as possible on 93 octane pump gas while still streetable regarding road manners and running my vacuum stuff (pb, headlights, wiper door, etc.). I still want to cruise to the occasional long distance car show, cruise-in, etc. I have already purchased the Edel Performer R-port Air-gap intake. Getting air in and exhaust out to get more power should not be a problem.

My engine builder plans to use new aluminum Pro-topline heads to get up to 10.5:1 compression and will bore and stroke it to a 555. He also plans to use a solid roller cam that he will have custom grinde to his specs.

I would appreciate your thoughts and advice! Thx for reading.

 

It sounds like you have a pretty solid plan so far. My only advice would be to educate yourself on head and cam specs. A big solid roller may not have the street manners for cruises. I went with a hydraulic roller and 355 cnc'd heads to get big streetable HP. Holley Pro-Shop built me a 1250 Dominator with a PV in front that is 2 circuit instead of 3. It's a 598 and made 819 hp on motor and can hold a 400 shot without me worrying.

 

My engine builder also has talked about having my 850dp Speed Demon w/mechanical secondaries 'tweaked' by Barry Grant Eng to match it to my cubic inches and heads. He said it would probably 'grow' to ~1050cfm.

I've also questioned using the solid roller based alot on what I've read on this forum. He has not started on the motor yet so this is still a decision to make. He seems to think he can make it streetable with the solid roller and feels we would be leaving too much hp on the table with the hydraulic roller. I do want to occasionally run this car at the strip with street tires as my savior.

His specialty is building BBC engines for street and strip and he runs his own 90's-body Camaro (672 w/dual 4s,tunnel ram) at the drags. He has a complete machine shop and does all of his own machining, balancing, headwork, etc.

Thanks for the reply! Anyone else?

 

Mark you know how I feel about the solid roller.. The solid roller lifters are only good for about 25,000 miles. Go with the hydraulic roller and you won't have to worry with it. Dave

 

Rollers are neat and fancy and expensive and prone to come apart sooner or later. For the street I would still stick with a good solid mechanical cam. But that is just me.

 

Mark, big blocks love cam and compression. I have gone back and forth on the roller cam thing as well. I am currently running a solid flat tappet with 258 @ .050 and have no vacuum problems on my 502. I feel the second best alternative to a solid roller is a solid flat tappet. 555 inches can really tame a cam down fast. I would also use a single plane intake on that combo as well. I would either run a Holley Strip Dominator which will fit the L88 setup perfectly, or have a Victor Jr. milled to fit. You may be at the point where you want to lose a little low end to hook up and have a little more fun on the top depending on cam choice. I also think anything less than a full 3 inch exhaust is going to be a MAJOR restriction on that motor, especially with the RPM that a solid roller will likely spin to. Sounds like a fun project. Good luck.
Bill

 

Thx for all the input!

I really would like to use a solid (flat tappet or roller?) cam because I want the performance and that sound! My engine builder told me he'll adjust the lash for free twice a year unless I want to learn to do it myself.

Would appreciate more input on cam type as well as distributor (running stock tach drive with points), ignition (currently accel 300 digital), pistons (thinking JE), crank, etc.

Anyone else?

 

Mark,
I'm probably opening a can of worms here because of the many debates I've seen here and on other forums.
My concern would not be the ocassional resetting of lash so much as the high cost of replacing the roller lifters. They tend to wear fast as evidenced by many here who have had them rebuilt or replaced. Your engine builder is right about leaving a few ponies on the table if you don't use a solid roller. Not trying to sway you, just giving additional info. Good luck, this will be a fun project,keep us posted.

 

"A big solid roller may not have the street manners for cruises. I went with a hydraulic roller and 355 cnc'd heads to get big streetable HP."

pef427 - Can you be more specific on why you chose the hydraulic roller over a solid flat tappet?

 

Running a "real" solid roller on the street takes commitment. To make big power with an engine this size, takes a relatively serious cam. You can get all over 750-800+ HP with a solid roller in the 265-275* range with .700-.750 lift. You can use a tight 108LSA but street manners won't be as nice as using a 112 LSA. You have to juggle the duration and LSA to get the overlap you will need. Smaller duration/tighter LSA....larger duration/wider LSA.

At this stage, even with the pressurized oiling type lifters that Isky, Crower and Comp (as well as high $$ Jesel's), I still wouldn't feel comfortable running them past a year on the street without rebuilding them. "Checking" them to me is a gamble..you can't tell when they will go away..and when they do..bad things happen fast.

As long as you keep the lifters functioning right, the cam will last almost indefinitely.

I do a pretty good bit of street driving with mine. My K-motion springs are 3-4 years old now...and pressures are still OK. They are in the 660# open range. So spring life isn't too big a deal here...but you need good ones, flood them with lots of oil. Too soft a spring is worse than too heavy of one. I ran some basic Isky springs in the past as well as the ones that Brodix installs out of the box (who knows what brand) without issues. So again, spring life is light years from where it used to be.

You need to make sure geometry is correct. My Brodix heads still have the original guides in them and have been run with lifts in the .680-774 lift range over the last 5-6 years. They are still perfect. No issues there.

Again, back to lifters. That's the issue. You want to avoid as much low speed idling as you can with a big solid race roller. Pressurized oiling dramatically helps, but you still don't get as much oil at idle. Several of us are working on ways to maximize oiling to them. 540Rat has modified his lifters to add more oiling potential. It's not running yet, so can't say how much it helps...but it sure can't hurt. We've looked at the Schubeck style lifters. I think they *may* be a real improvement..but they are unproven.

You can use one of the *street roller* cams that will be easier on parts. Good news is they will have great manners, better than an equivalent hyd roller will rev much higher than a hyd roller, but will make about same power at most speeds as hyd roller. Real advantage is they won't float valves and will allow you to rev higher and make even more power. They might even have more low end power..but peak willl be similar. Just they will *hang on* much better after peak HP rpm.

But a street roller is going to be quite a bit less power than a *racy* type roller. So you have to decide how much power you need and how much you are willing to put up with.

I think a big solid flat tappet is an alternative. It will have similar manners/HP as a hyd roller...but will rev much higher for a lot less cost. A solid roller making similar power or even more..will have better manners than either one. Again it will be less hp than a *racy* roller, but still not bad. You have to go through proper break in procedures, but once you do, they should last a long time.

So there are some overall thoughts. You can make 650-750 HP with a solid flat tappet that is sorta streetable and reliable. You can make another 30-50 Hp with a racy roller that requires dedication. You can run a hyd roller and most likely not worry about it, but be careful revving too high. It will make similar power as a flat tappet with similar manners, but again won't rev as high. or you can use the street solid roller. It will have the best manners of them all..it will rev as high as any of them, it will make similar power to flat tappet and hyd roller..but again it will have better manners and revability. Lifters will last much longer than race roller stuff, but still need to keep an eye on them. If you want that extra pile of power...you gotta move to the race roller group.

I can only give a little indication of results from mine to illustrate. In *race trim* my 540 with solid roller will run trap speeds in the 139-141 mph range. That means open headers, carb spacer, slicks, skinny front tires etc etc. We threw a solid flat tappet in it that literally was sitting in garage once and used it to drive from Houston to Bowling Green Ky. Defitely not the cam I would choose for it...way too low on lift etc, but hey it was free.

We literally drove it there, unloaded luggage and lawnchairs at the track, pulled to the line with no preparation. That means plain BFG street radials (not drag radials) big fat front tires, closed headers with full exhaust, no carb spacer etc etc. Of course traction was very limited and I couldn't get my foot into it until 3rd gear...but it still ran trap speeds in the 130-131 mph range. I truly think that in *race mode* it could run 134-135 mph with that *wrong cam*. I thinkl 136-137mph might be possible with the correct flat tappet.

On the intake deal...the RPM air gap will pull hard and drive nice, but it's going to try and strangle that many cubes. A 555 for sure is a big bore rev happy motor. You have plenty of low end...those intakes were designed for 454 sized engines. They are an excellent intake and work well on super heavy automatic 500" combos, but you will be leaving as much *on the table* with that intake as the cam choices are.

A buddy ran a 540 with something like a .610 lift 238/244* hyd roller using GM/Edelbrock rectangular ports, GM dual plane hi rise and it was dead after 4900 rpm. It peaked around 400-410 RHP but just ran out of air. A simple change to a Holley Strip dominator single plane literally picked up 30 RWHP! A 1000 HP Holley picked up 17 more RWHP over the previous 850DP. Head porting and a slightly bigger cam got it to 500 RWHP range. But it was still dying with too small of exhaust and cam and was down 65-115 RWHP over what the rest of us were doing with better heads/exhaust and cams.


Hope all of this helps a little.


JIM

 

I think 427Hotrod just explained it better than I ever could. But armed with this knowledge and the fact that this was my first venture in 500+ motors I wanted something that I could learn to drive and grow into. I beefed the drivetrain some but when this thing hooks...well, you know.
So, I still have a few grand to spend on drivetrain and then the paint.Maybe by then I'll know what mods to make if any. Keep in mind I'm trying to shift 6 gears while piloting more HP than I've ever had...I'm not fond of rubbing the wall.
By the time I finish this thing you guys will have enough experience to keep me from wasting $$$.
Another reason for the Hyd roller was I thought it would live longer on the annual trip to CF CI in BG,KY. Jim does it with a solid roller but then again he ain't normal!!!

 

Is there sufficient "operating experience" with the various pressurized lifters to have established a "life expectancy"? i.e., how long could you go between replacement/rebuild? (full RPM runs? street miles?....... when you say "a year", what sort of miles, etc, are you assuming?)

I'm in the market for a couple sets, and am considering the current options

 

Jim explained things very well - as usual. You've got a tough decision in front of you. There is definitely more maintenance involved in running a solid roller and for some people it is worth it.

My 632" motor has a solid roller with Crower roller lifters with HIPPO. I have had zero problem in over 2 years of running. I don't put a ton of miles on this motor every year but it has been dead reliable. I am running springs with over 300# on the seat and 900# open. I have pulled the lifters out a few times now and they are still perfect. My previous 542" motor had the standard Comp Cams rollers and after 1 year of running the lifters were in need of a rebuild.

I am getting ready to put a solid roller in my 383 along with a set of the new Comp Cam Endure-X roller lifters. I am currently running a hydraulic roller and am not happy with the horsepower drop off above 6300 rpm. I will be posting the results of this new cam/lifter combination as soon as I get around to performing the swap. The solid roller is a tad bit larger than the hydraulic roller I am currently running.

It will be interesting to see how long these new solid roller lifters last. Oh, and one more thing, I prefer the sound of the solid roller cam to that of a hydraulic roller.

Steve

 

Steve,
I have a solid roller in my 525HP 350 that I put in my Jeep. I intend to check it soon. I don't take many road trips in it, just beach and local rides. 40 inch Boggers and that kind of power in a Jeep are a blast.
My 598 made 819 HP @ 6100 and only fell to 803 @ 6700. I don't intend to take it past there. Why twist a motor that high if you can hit the target HP sooner. It just made more sense to me. I am excited to think that once I'm ready, if ever, I can pick up 50-80+ HP with a cam swap. I didn't want a dedicated race car. But I will watch and listen to you guys and that will help determine what changes to make.
-Patrick

 

Life expectancy has a lot to do with the cam itself. The first set of rollers I ever had were bought used with a cam out of a dragster. I sent cam to be reground smaller (still .725 lift) and ran that cam and lifters on the street for a couple of years. No long trips really..probably 7-8K miles total. Then I took the same lifters and put them on a Comp street roller can (.623 lift) without rebuilding. I ran them 3 years.....about 15,000 miles before they all of a sudden died. Truthfully I'm not sure if the lifters died or the Austempered cast core cam died. The rest of the lifters are still in my garage and *feel* fine..so I'm thinking cam. Remember, I have no idea how many runs the dragster put on them and at what RPM.

The next lifters went in the 540 and were basic Comps. I ran them 2 years on a .685 lift cam. Lots of street use, idling, cruising, racing. Probably had about 9000 miles on them before one died. The cam was OK, so I had them rebuilt and ran them a while longer before I switched to a .731 lift cam. I ran them on that cam for about a year or so..maybe 3-4000 miles. One started making noise. So I had them rebuilt again. About this time Comp made me a super deal on a set of the new pressurized Endurex lifters as a test deal before they went out to market. I ran them for a little while..maybe 1000 mile or so, and we were going to make the big trip to Bowling Green from Houston (2000 miles). I stuck the non-pressurized newly rebuilt ones in the night before we left thinking there would be enough highway running to keep them lubed well. I checked valves when we got there and all was perfect. On the return trip...about 75 miles or so from home, one started ticking slightly. I drove it home and when I opened it up, I found that the needles were already pretty loose in one lifter. I reinstalled the pressurized ones and ran them all last year. Maybe 5000 miles? In the middle of all that somewhere I changed cam to a smaller duration (same .731 lift). After a year, I had the pressurized ones rebuilt again and even though they all *felt* OK..one was starting to gall on the shaft. Today, the pressurized ones are in my 540 with the newly rebuilt *non pressurized* one's waiting as spares/backups on the shelf.

So you can see...it takes some dedication to run .700-.800 lift cams on the street and put 5000 miles a year on them.

ML67 has probably 4000-5000 miles on his Isky RedZones so far with a .700 or so lift cam and so far is doing very well. He just checked them while he was doing some other work.

I can also tell you that the newest version of the Comps are using a different/hardened axle than what is in mine, so it would appear they have improved it based on the *test* results that some of us noted.

On a street roller cam..in the .650 lift range, I think a good set of Isky Redzones or the new Comps or Crowers or Lunatis could go 20,000-25,000+ miles without too much issue.

But as you noted, not sure if there is enough data out there yet to know for sure.


JIM

 

Good input!, very valuable, thanks Jim. I was considering going with 2 set's of Isky red zones, or perhaps the new Lunati's, of course they say they're more durable..... (i wonder if cryo'ing them would help?)

BTW: after much consideration looks like i'll be starting with a Lunati # 502A9 solid roller; it’s 300/306, 264/270 at 50, 670/670 lift, LSA 110. The guys at Lunati said this new grind is "Very easy on valve train parts! ". But I’m only building a meager 496 for my 66 coupe, with skinny street tires.


Other info on my combo (so far, if you guys are interested)…….
-Studded 4 bolt short block, all forged parts, floating pins
-10.7 Static compression
-Brodix RaceRite rect port heads (thanks for turning me on to those Jim)
-Holley 1000 HP
-Old Edelbrock C427X (heavily ported, port matched to the Brodix’s, with the plenum divider removed), just fits under my stock hood, and looks “60ish”
-2” Stahl headers
-4.11s, new wide range super case M22

I'm shooting for power from ~3500-6500.…….trying to kill some power below 3500 for launching. Will look fairly “period correct”, nothing to radical, but should be able to hold it’s own against at least a few of the local “muscle cars“.

 

Thanks all for the continuing posts and info. I'm torn, dazed and confused...

Are you guys with these big solid rollers shifting at 7000rpms at the track? On the street? I want to be able to play at the track but I'm not sure I'm brave enough to shift this thing above 6000.

I'm still worried about streetability or the occasional 300 mile road trip. When you were talking about low idle, what idle speed would these different cams need to be at?

 

good info - I need to make a decision soon too.