Bullshark

Motorhead, you of all people know that "shootouts" are not a scientific approach to determining performance. way to many variables including the human element The dyno test doesn't lie and if properly configured, will always show todays FI as superior.

Billysvette, for some reason you have this belief that the difference between carburetion and fuel injection is insignificant and not worth the cost difference. You are probably basing that opinion on subjective observations like Motorhead just pointed out. Sure, there are as many ways to design a complex system like the automotive engine as you want to imagine. How you want to define performance is a major consideration of how you approach it. Your definition sounds like the quarter mile drag.??? You can put your money in many different areas that improve VE (volumetric efficiency).....More cubic inches, better flowing exhaust, better flowing cylinder head design, more efficient intake systems like NOS, turbo charging, cam, etc. etc. Just because you can come up with a sheet hot design configuration that happens to have a carb on it does not mean a carb is better, or even equal. Dollar for Dollar, FI is one of the best investments you could make. I agree with bb69, you have already made up your mind based on what you know and understand. And that is fine....as I stated earlier, it is human nature to go with what you know, especially when you are spending your own money. But your position on carbs vs FI is (obvious to me anyway) based on a lack of knowledge and understanding of FI. I have made a career in engineering and technology development and if we had a conservative mindset like some of what I have seen here, we would still be riding horses and shooting with bow and arrows.

The bottom line is...Fuel injection has it all over carburetion in every category including cost. It is the best money I have spent on any of my C3s. and it has nothing to do with ego........everything to do with knowledge. Forgive me if I have offended anyone, I just got back from a nite of racquetball and libations. Definitely not good for the old brain cells ......I know

Bullshark

Big2Bird

I wonder how large a carb would be for a top fuel dragster? Larger or smaller than a toilet?

vettenoir

A toilet is about 1 gallon per flush. I think a TFD fuel pump is 65GPM. You would need more than 1 flush per second to keep from running lean at WOT

Little Mouse

I can buy a new carb for $350.00 or less, whats it cost to buy a
new fuel injection system $2500.00. there are plenty of people on
the forum with Q-jets 35 yrs old still going not wore out yet. lets
see I buy say Six new carbs for $2100.00 with $400.00 left over,
If I can only make one new carb last twenty five yrs I would have to
live 150 more yrs to maybe whare them all out. I would bet money
that no one will get even twenty five yrs of use out of the computer
that runs the one new fuel injection system. I looked at an accell
fuel injection that looked like it could flow some air for a decent engine it cost
$3500.00. The late 80s fuel injection that chevy used falls on its face on a
350 size engine at 4500 rpm.

KW

we must of gone to the same school
BAD #SS HIGH

63mako

Right, but my point is they run over 700 HP, are pulling over 2 HP per CI, 200 MPH + top speeds and can smoke huge tires and do roasting donuts all day if they want running a carb through a 390 CFM restrictor plate. It is all about properly matched components and tuning.

shafrs3

Yes, but what I've heard is the teams would love to utilize EFI, rules restrict it.

I'll also hazard a guess and say one day the rules will change and include FI.

shafrs3

It can be done for much cheaper than that, like anything else you can spend as much as you like on a system.

Little Mouse

If you have a low rpm small engine you can find a new injection
system for say $2000/$2500 if you want to build a larger engine turn
it a few revs so it can make good power you will be out $3500.00
for a new aftermarket injection. I can up the price to $500/$600
and have a new carb that will flow as much air as a $3500.00 fuel
injection. Theres a ton of difference between spending $600.00
and $3500.00

zwede

Not true. The Holley C950 systems go up to over 1000hp for ~$2500. Keep in mind this includes the intake & fuel pump. You compare the cost of a carb alone to a full induction system.

For a healthy big cube motor you'll spend a good bit of money on the fuel pump & intake. Add in a fancy carb and you're looking at ~$1500 for the carb version vs $2500 for port-EFI.

bbeck

Fuel Injection will be on my car as soon as I get a chance. And like stated before, it can be done for cheaper. And, I imagine that the reason behind the 80's FI cars falling on their faces is because of the cam and maybe other minor things- not the FI unit.

Big2Bird

Gee, Are those rims larger than 15"? Are they faster than old school rims?

Billysvette

And your point is?

Big2Bird

Just trying to get back to your question.
The debate of old school vs modern needs definition.

The carburetor was invented in 1893
Fuel injection came to Indy in 1949
My Model T Ford has 23" rims , tilt steering, and multi spark ignition.
The Hemi design combustion chamber was first used on a Ford Racing engine in 1926.
Other than refinements, nothing is new, only refined.

I know I am off on a tangent here, but I feel for the sake of the argument, someone please define OLD school for me.

burners

Not quite. Restrictor plate engines only make about 450 HP and they spend huge amounts of money on those carbs. A $300 carb isn't going to make 450 HP @ 7000 rpm with a 7/8" dia restrictor. On the max performance vs. cost issue Warren Johnson was quoted as saying that he could save a lot of money by switching to EFI. His carbs cost $1500-2000 each! He has to run 2 on his Pro-stock engine.

Zwede had a good point on cost comparision. You have to add up the carb, intake, fuel pump, extra jets and gaskets to get a closer carb set-up cost. That puts you closer to the $700-900 range. Besides, it's not always about cost and cheap isn't always better (often times it is the exact opposite) but if it is what you can afford then that's cool. If it's a matter of what you're willing to spend then that's cool too but different things have different values to each person and you can't compare that and say one approach is better than another.

MotorHead

Well said, I'll be leaving it a that

shafrs3

You can do better than that with Holley's TBI system for ~$1500. That gets you a fairly modern ECU capable of running MPFI when you decide to upgrade, and you will eventually want to upgrade, that's what 50% of this forum is about.

cardo0

How 'bout mechanical lifter cams - flat or roller. Does a hyd roller make any more power than a solid roller? NO! Does a hyd roller cost more than a solid? Yes! What you get for nearly twice the price is eliminate vlv adjustments and a little less overlap due to lifter bleed down. Now as for a flat tappet solid cam compared to a hyd flat the flat solid cams make more power period. The flat solid grinds just have steeper ramps and make more vlv lift on the same duration - more open flow area under the curve.

Old school is supercharging also. Hotroders since the 60's have been removing roots superchargers from school buses and trucks then cutting a hole in the hood to intimidate the competition with a blower sticking out. Any hi-tech bolt-ons give you 50% pwr increase? Well yes and its a centrifical supercharger or turbo. But the pwr gains are the same only no holes through the hood needed.

So lets add things up here. Supercharged Big Block with a hot solid roller cam inside. Enough power yet? More power than i would run on the street regardless carb or EFI. It would be hard to control nearly 1,000hp at the gas pedal. Ever hear the expression wrapped aroung a tree? Well i've smacked a few fence posts in my younger days with a lot less than 400hp.

I guess what i'm saying here is that yes, outrageous power is possible using old school, even 60's tech, more power than i care to drive on the street.

IMHO the only hi-tech improvement i can't live without is electronic ignition. Points are just to problem-matic while electronic ign is soo reliable and inexpensive. Dual points can be made to turn hi-rpm but with a lot more effort compared to electronic ign.

Anything else? Cranks? No, stroker cranks been here forever just hi-tech manufactuing has brought the costs down to OEM prices. Rods? Sure u can buy titanium rods now - good luck. Aluminum rods still lightest. Pistons? Well now for the medium performance applications the eutechtic castings beat the stock castings hands down for strength - in price too. But for the serious power engines, forged pistons are the only choice and nothing new. How 'bout blocks? Well how much power to make'n? <500hp all you need is a seasoned boneyard casting. Want a mountain size small block then the new hi-tech aftermarket blocks have thier place and earn thier expense. Cylinder heads? We can buy good heads now right off the shelf as good as what we paid the head portes to do buy hand - hi-tech saves us a few bucks here but not much power.

So com'on in and look at the entire old school picture. Anyone got better hi-tech parts that make more power for less money lets hear it. I want to know as i'm sure others too.
cardo0

Big2Bird

Excellant, informative response. I can only add that The Roots blower has been in constant production , with few refinements, since 1868.

I could not agree more that all these methods have been around a long time, only refined.

The only true recent innovation that comes to my mind is ABS brakes.

I'm Batman

Some of the traction control systems are new innovations. I can't say how much of a step forward they are, though. As for ABS...I hate it. I can stop faster and safer by modulating my foot pressure that what an ABS system could do - I've driven a few ABS-equipped vehicles that were, quite frankly, frightening.