Fiberglass Monosprings vs Coilovers
Pro
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 720
Likes: 1
From: Holtwood PA
No need to be so hostile. Sometimes things can go over peoples heads and they won't understand. How about this:
There are a lot of benefits to coil overs apart from the obvious ease of spring swapping and ride height adjustment, but there are important benefits as spring and shock tuning allows you to set up the suspension to suit your car much better than with any other system. The spring coiling the shock means that the shock and spring operate at the same rate regarding the wheel rate. This makes it easier to understand why a change in one has a certain effect. Also, if placed closer to the axis center line the coil over will have a spring & shock rate closer to the wheel rate, meaning that it is able to respond quicker to the wheel movements and it's more sensitive to smaller movements. Furthermore with the shock rigidly mounted it will control the complete wheel movement, something which is not possible with a transverse spring because you use cushions, and most kits only spring load the suspension on bump and not on droop. The spring has to be stiff enough to follow the suspension very closely or it will just float. Then there's the benefits of the shocks being rebuild-able, re-valve-able and generally much higher quality than ordinary shocks. They are also more rigidly mounted compared to the stock shock setup. Furthermore the coil overs give absolute true independence and allow you to fine tune the rear suspension much closer by addition of a sway bar, unlike the transverse leaf which takes away from true independence.
There are a lot of benefits to coil overs apart from the obvious ease of spring swapping and ride height adjustment, but there are important benefits as spring and shock tuning allows you to set up the suspension to suit your car much better than with any other system. The spring coiling the shock means that the shock and spring operate at the same rate regarding the wheel rate. This makes it easier to understand why a change in one has a certain effect. Also, if placed closer to the axis center line the coil over will have a spring & shock rate closer to the wheel rate, meaning that it is able to respond quicker to the wheel movements and it's more sensitive to smaller movements. Furthermore with the shock rigidly mounted it will control the complete wheel movement, something which is not possible with a transverse spring because you use cushions, and most kits only spring load the suspension on bump and not on droop. The spring has to be stiff enough to follow the suspension very closely or it will just float. Then there's the benefits of the shocks being rebuild-able, re-valve-able and generally much higher quality than ordinary shocks. They are also more rigidly mounted compared to the stock shock setup. Furthermore the coil overs give absolute true independence and allow you to fine tune the rear suspension much closer by addition of a sway bar, unlike the transverse leaf which takes away from true independence.
I mean you keep talking about spring rates and wheel rates and all, are you just trying to get me confused!?!?
Seriously, this has been one of my 'would really like to know but don't want to sound stupid' questions. When I sit in the john
going through the VS catalog...well anyway, I've been trying to figure out which system would give me the best performance...don't have much money so what I spend needs to be right...Coil overs it is!!
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,071
Likes: 0
From: San Diego CA
Well the has to be SOME reason coil-overs are used on even the C5R and C6R...
Personally I'm gonna go with coil-overs, also. However the route I'm taking to install them in the rear involves cutting divets in the storage boxes and using the stock shock mounts. This allows me to stay in SM2 for autocross. Using the kit puts the shock mounting locations in a different place and that's against the class rules for SM2.
Now what's the benefit of using the specialized a-arms in the front for coil-overs? Instead of the stock a-arms, which really don't weigh all that much more.
Personally I'm gonna go with coil-overs, also. However the route I'm taking to install them in the rear involves cutting divets in the storage boxes and using the stock shock mounts. This allows me to stay in SM2 for autocross. Using the kit puts the shock mounting locations in a different place and that's against the class rules for SM2.
Now what's the benefit of using the specialized a-arms in the front for coil-overs? Instead of the stock a-arms, which really don't weigh all that much more.
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 13
From: Holly MI
I'm not being hostile. I am challenging you to support your broad sales claims with real data. You are selling an expensive kit, and I don't think it's responsible to make the generic claims you have made. For those willing to shell out the money because the race teams do it, go ahead. I've done the same thing before, and I have learned from this.
"The spring coiling the shock means that the shock and spring operate at the same rate regarding the wheel rate."
Where are the spring and shock mounted in the front of a C3? Guess what, the shock is mounted inside the coil spring. How is that different? In the rear, there is a small difference. Can you say what this means to performance? Is it enough to sell you on this?
"Also, if placed closer to the axis center line the coil over will have a spring & shock rate closer to the wheel rate, meaning that it is able to respond quicker to the wheel movements and it's more sensitive to smaller movements."
Do the kits that are available do this? The quote above says "if".
"Furthermore with the shock rigidly mounted it will control the complete wheel movement, something which is not possible with a transverse spring because you use cushions, and most kits only spring load the suspension on bump and not on droop. The spring has to be stiff enough to follow the suspension very closely or it will just float."
This is the most confusing statement here. Are you suggesting that the leaf spring doesn't apply load to the wheel when it is moving away from the car (rebound or droop as you call it)? If the leaf is not applying load, how does the wheel move so quickly? Have you ever taken a leaf spring off? Doesn't the spring still have tension in it when you have the suspension at full droop and you are removing it? If not, then why are there so many posts about how to remove the spring and keep it from smacking you in the face? I have taken it off and know that there is still tension. Spring stiffness has nothing to do with coilovers. You can buy different rate leafs and coils from many vendors.
"Then there's the benefits of the shocks being rebuild-able, re-valve-able and generally much higher quality than ordinary shocks."
You can get the same benefit by purchasing adjustable shocks without buying a coilover system. Also, how many people here are actually going to adjust their shocks on a continuous basis? For most, buying a shock that was properly valved to begin with would be more useful. Again, nothing specific to coilovers.
"Furthermore the coil overs give absolute true independence and allow you to fine tune the rear suspension much closer by addition of a sway bar, unlike the transverse leaf which takes away from true independence."
Can you give actual evidence of this? Have you considered the oscillations that happen in a coil spring? You say you can have true independence and that allows you to add a sway bar. What happens when you put a sway bar on? It tie the two sides together. So, that doesn't make much sense. You even talk about that in another post on this thread.
I don't have a problem with your kit. I will use coilovers on the racecar I am building because I plan to change spring rates and shock valving from track to track, and as I dial the car in for all out track duty. Those are the same reasons race teams use them. The problem I have is making a statement about design and not being able to provide data to support this.
Ken
"The spring coiling the shock means that the shock and spring operate at the same rate regarding the wheel rate."
Where are the spring and shock mounted in the front of a C3? Guess what, the shock is mounted inside the coil spring. How is that different? In the rear, there is a small difference. Can you say what this means to performance? Is it enough to sell you on this?
"Also, if placed closer to the axis center line the coil over will have a spring & shock rate closer to the wheel rate, meaning that it is able to respond quicker to the wheel movements and it's more sensitive to smaller movements."
Do the kits that are available do this? The quote above says "if".
"Furthermore with the shock rigidly mounted it will control the complete wheel movement, something which is not possible with a transverse spring because you use cushions, and most kits only spring load the suspension on bump and not on droop. The spring has to be stiff enough to follow the suspension very closely or it will just float."
This is the most confusing statement here. Are you suggesting that the leaf spring doesn't apply load to the wheel when it is moving away from the car (rebound or droop as you call it)? If the leaf is not applying load, how does the wheel move so quickly? Have you ever taken a leaf spring off? Doesn't the spring still have tension in it when you have the suspension at full droop and you are removing it? If not, then why are there so many posts about how to remove the spring and keep it from smacking you in the face? I have taken it off and know that there is still tension. Spring stiffness has nothing to do with coilovers. You can buy different rate leafs and coils from many vendors.
"Then there's the benefits of the shocks being rebuild-able, re-valve-able and generally much higher quality than ordinary shocks."
You can get the same benefit by purchasing adjustable shocks without buying a coilover system. Also, how many people here are actually going to adjust their shocks on a continuous basis? For most, buying a shock that was properly valved to begin with would be more useful. Again, nothing specific to coilovers.
"Furthermore the coil overs give absolute true independence and allow you to fine tune the rear suspension much closer by addition of a sway bar, unlike the transverse leaf which takes away from true independence."
Can you give actual evidence of this? Have you considered the oscillations that happen in a coil spring? You say you can have true independence and that allows you to add a sway bar. What happens when you put a sway bar on? It tie the two sides together. So, that doesn't make much sense. You even talk about that in another post on this thread.
I don't have a problem with your kit. I will use coilovers on the racecar I am building because I plan to change spring rates and shock valving from track to track, and as I dial the car in for all out track duty. Those are the same reasons race teams use them. The problem I have is making a statement about design and not being able to provide data to support this.
Ken
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16,100
Likes: 17
For a serious road racing car,coilovers are SOP, for the street a total waste of good money. (There is also the little matter of what the sanctioning body of your racing class will allow you to change on the car.)
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
I was going to get 700# front springs. I started thinking that QA-1 coil overs might be the way to go
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16,100
Likes: 17
