M-22 or ???: Trans.selection help
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
The D&D T-56 has an offset shifter that is perfectly positioned. It also uses the stock bellhousing, clutch, PP, clutch linkage and speedometer hookup. The only changes required is crossmember modification, driveshaft and slight tunnel clearancing.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 283
From: Puyallup WA
Steve, Steve, Steve........the problem is you were just driving it too slow!
Having driven crash box Muncies and T-10's for years on the street.....I am just flat in love with the GF5R you convinced me to buy. It's by far one of the best/fun things I've done with the car! Pulling that Long shifter at 7500 rpm or so is just pure magic!
I think you're pretty much limited to a synchro trans if you don't want the *slop* that a dog ring/face plated setup has. That's why they shift so well It's because there is a great big window for the slider to fit into when you shift. Of course if you *goose it* or let on and off rapidly you'll feel that slop. A big 'ole cam thumping can make it happen too if you end up in the *sweet spot* and keep it there.
But I have to say, I just don't notice it much on mine. Mark has ridden in and driven it too...that's what convinced him to buy yours! It does take a little practice to drive..and it won't ever be as smooth at low speeds as a synchro...but it can be reasonably smooth.
For the 632......I would still like to see something with some strength. Obviously the TKO and Richmond did OK on the dyno....but I wouldn't give either one of them any hope with some traction and a 7000 rpm shift in your car. The dyno is a pretty smooth deal as compared to banging it down the track.
The T-56 is going to be about the strongest thing I can think of with a synchro. G-Force makes them too. Not sure of fitment..but I know of a couple of C-3's that have managed to put them in without too much drama. I wonder if Liberty makes a synchro straight cut gear setup for a Muncie? I bet they could if you asked.
Then there is the Lenco ST1200..but they say they eat some power too. But being a planetary trans shouldn't be any slop in it...and smooth to drive. They freewheel when you let off..so no jerking.
Let's get that thing running..one of these days when I'm up there I want to go riding...at about midnight when no one is around!!
JIM
Having driven crash box Muncies and T-10's for years on the street.....I am just flat in love with the GF5R you convinced me to buy. It's by far one of the best/fun things I've done with the car! Pulling that Long shifter at 7500 rpm or so is just pure magic!
I think you're pretty much limited to a synchro trans if you don't want the *slop* that a dog ring/face plated setup has. That's why they shift so well It's because there is a great big window for the slider to fit into when you shift. Of course if you *goose it* or let on and off rapidly you'll feel that slop. A big 'ole cam thumping can make it happen too if you end up in the *sweet spot* and keep it there.
But I have to say, I just don't notice it much on mine. Mark has ridden in and driven it too...that's what convinced him to buy yours! It does take a little practice to drive..and it won't ever be as smooth at low speeds as a synchro...but it can be reasonably smooth.
For the 632......I would still like to see something with some strength. Obviously the TKO and Richmond did OK on the dyno....but I wouldn't give either one of them any hope with some traction and a 7000 rpm shift in your car. The dyno is a pretty smooth deal as compared to banging it down the track.
The T-56 is going to be about the strongest thing I can think of with a synchro. G-Force makes them too. Not sure of fitment..but I know of a couple of C-3's that have managed to put them in without too much drama. I wonder if Liberty makes a synchro straight cut gear setup for a Muncie? I bet they could if you asked.
Then there is the Lenco ST1200..but they say they eat some power too. But being a planetary trans shouldn't be any slop in it...and smooth to drive. They freewheel when you let off..so no jerking.
Let's get that thing running..one of these days when I'm up there I want to go riding...at about midnight when no one is around!!
JIM
That GF-5R is the perfect trans for your combination - and it was for mine until I got in my mind that I needed a PG. Hey, if Mark wouldn't have wanted it I would still have it to this day.
As far as the *slop* in the trans, yah that became a real annoyance for me. The other thing is the constant banging of gears - you simply can't shift the trans any other way but fast. Hey, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
If you don't notice the banging inside the trans when trying to cruise then that just tells me you have too small of a cam!
I don't believe that a T-56 will fit in the car without major surgery but I really don't know. I don't need any kind of overdrive capability with this deal.
I would just like to get the strongest synchro style trans that is available and will fit in the car. Does it have to be a 4-speed - not if there is something out there that is better.
I have looked into the Liberty deal and they don't have anything I am interested in.
Oh, and the car is running right now. I just installed the Isky EZX roller lifters and plan on making a few runs this weekend. When can I expect you to swing by?
Steve
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 283
From: Puyallup WA
Do you know what has been done to this trans to get a 650 lbs/ft torque rating? Does is come from the factory that way or do they modify the internal components?
Also, do you know what the helix angle of the gears are?
Steve
Racer
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
From: Pace FL
Amen to the syncros not living very long when being subjected to powershifts. (BTDT)
While I can't afford the complete AutoGear super-Muncie, the M22 wide ratio gearset is front and center on my current overhaul wish list, along with the mid-plate and other bits. I don't have any future plans to drag race my C3, so I believe it ought to handle the mere ~500hp it'll see out of my next build up.
See there's yet another vote for the McLeod street twin. Looks as if that may deserve a spot on my wish list, too.
Back on point, IMHO when behind an engine with a broad power band, the wide ratio steps make good sense vs. those of the close ratio, which is all about keeping revs within a narrower band.
BTW, I'm curious to know who proshifted your M22 and, in particular, how well it downshifted.
While I can't afford the complete AutoGear super-Muncie, the M22 wide ratio gearset is front and center on my current overhaul wish list, along with the mid-plate and other bits. I don't have any future plans to drag race my C3, so I believe it ought to handle the mere ~500hp it'll see out of my next build up.
See there's yet another vote for the McLeod street twin. Looks as if that may deserve a spot on my wish list, too.Back on point, IMHO when behind an engine with a broad power band, the wide ratio steps make good sense vs. those of the close ratio, which is all about keeping revs within a narrower band.
BTW, I'm curious to know who proshifted your M22 and, in particular, how well it downshifted.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,230
Likes: 1,009
From: Watkinsville, GA and Glen Cove, NY
Steve, another good contact for the Autogear Muncies is Paul Cangeliosi (sp) at 5speeds.com. He is on the forum here as well. He has a couple of specialties within this tranny as well. One is called a Spec 25 I think which makes it even a little stronger. I have visited his shop in FL and he does very impressive work, really knows all transmissions and is a really nice guy to boot. He would be another great guy for you to talk to and probably give you some great ideas.
On a side note, just curious if the power loss was the same with all the different manual transmissions you tried on the dyno. Of the top of my head I would think the G-force would be less. Good luck and have fun in the research.
Bill
On a side note, just curious if the power loss was the same with all the different manual transmissions you tried on the dyno. Of the top of my head I would think the G-force would be less. Good luck and have fun in the research.
Bill
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 283
From: Puyallup WA
Steve, another good contact for the Autogear Muncies is Paul Cangeliosi (sp) at 5speeds.com. He is on the forum here as well. He has a couple of specialties within this tranny as well. One is called a Spec 25 I think which makes it even a little stronger. I have visited his shop in FL and he does very impressive work, really knows all transmissions and is a really nice guy to boot. He would be another great guy for you to talk to and probably give you some great ideas.
On a side note, just curious if the power loss was the same with all the different manual transmissions you tried on the dyno. Of the top of my head I would think the G-force would be less. Good luck and have fun in the research.
Bill
On a side note, just curious if the power loss was the same with all the different manual transmissions you tried on the dyno. Of the top of my head I would think the G-force would be less. Good luck and have fun in the research.
Bill
That is a great question about the power loss through the different transmissions. Unfortunately, I have never done any specific testing based on manual transmission types. It would be too hard to compare the 3 different manual transmissions because I made other changes to the combination.
That being said, I went back through my runs to see what the best numbers were. This is not as easy as you might think. With the 632" motor in this car, I have made 171 DynoJet runs!
At any rate, the best numbers are as follows:
TKO-600 = 933.01 rwhp (May)
G-Force = 929.89 rwhp (March)
Richmond Gear 6-speed = 928.63 (October)
Again, this is a very un-scientific approach here since I had different combinations at the time of each set of runs - not to mention different times of the year.
Steve
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 13,012
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From: Corsicana, Tx
2020 C2 of the Year - Modified Winner
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Yeah, that's the deal....everyone always accuses me of having too mild of a cam/heads/intake combo!! Just my little cruise to the beach car!
For what you're doing..how about a nice simple 2-3 speed Lenco Drive out of a dragster? You can even air shift them. Should be great for dyno testing.
Not sure when I'll make it back up. I was in Denver Mon/Tue/Wed.....Los Angeles today...back to Dallas tomorrow. But I WILL get there...so make sure it's all together!!
See ya,
Jim
For what you're doing..how about a nice simple 2-3 speed Lenco Drive out of a dragster? You can even air shift them. Should be great for dyno testing.
Not sure when I'll make it back up. I was in Denver Mon/Tue/Wed.....Los Angeles today...back to Dallas tomorrow. But I WILL get there...so make sure it's all together!!
See ya,
Jim
Former Vendor
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: Cookeville TN
TKO guy weighing in
When did you get your TKO? There was a period of time when Tremec did not polish the shift lugs which made the shifting ponderous under load, especially shifting 2-3. You can retrofit a set of polished shift lugs for very little cash.
I have over 2600 TKOs under my belt and there is one other thing that is universally misunderstood about this transmission among guys who are used to Muncies. Invariably customers want to shift from second to third in a Z pattern, shoving the shifter up,over and up. The TKO has a VERY narrow shift pattern and some pretty heavy centering springs, especially in shifters from companies like ours who sell kits.
With the TKO, the fasted shifts will be by simply placing your open hand on the ball and pushing forward, letting the centering springs do the work. When I demonstrate this live to frustrated customers at shows they almost always call or e-mail to tell me that with a little practice the shifting is markedly improved.
I agree that the Muncie is a quicker shifter under load, but the TKO can be very livable given the proper treatment and the polished lugs. Hope this helps!
I have over 2600 TKOs under my belt and there is one other thing that is universally misunderstood about this transmission among guys who are used to Muncies. Invariably customers want to shift from second to third in a Z pattern, shoving the shifter up,over and up. The TKO has a VERY narrow shift pattern and some pretty heavy centering springs, especially in shifters from companies like ours who sell kits.
With the TKO, the fasted shifts will be by simply placing your open hand on the ball and pushing forward, letting the centering springs do the work. When I demonstrate this live to frustrated customers at shows they almost always call or e-mail to tell me that with a little practice the shifting is markedly improved.
I agree that the Muncie is a quicker shifter under load, but the TKO can be very livable given the proper treatment and the polished lugs. Hope this helps!
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Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 4
From: Somers CT
With the TKO, the fasted shifts will be by simply placing your open hand on the ball and pushing forward, letting the centering springs do the work. When I demonstrate this live to frustrated customers at shows they almost always call or e-mail to tell me that with a little practice the shifting is markedly improved.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 283
From: Puyallup WA
Yeah, that's the deal....everyone always accuses me of having too mild of a cam/heads/intake combo!! Just my little cruise to the beach car!
For what you're doing..how about a nice simple 2-3 speed Lenco Drive out of a dragster? You can even air shift them. Should be great for dyno testing.
Not sure when I'll make it back up. I was in Denver Mon/Tue/Wed.....Los Angeles today...back to Dallas tomorrow. But I WILL get there...so make sure it's all together!!
See ya,
Jim
For what you're doing..how about a nice simple 2-3 speed Lenco Drive out of a dragster? You can even air shift them. Should be great for dyno testing.
Not sure when I'll make it back up. I was in Denver Mon/Tue/Wed.....Los Angeles today...back to Dallas tomorrow. But I WILL get there...so make sure it's all together!!
See ya,
Jim
Does Karen ever get to see you anymore? What am I saying, maybe she likes it this way.
Steve
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 283
From: Puyallup WA
When did you get your TKO? There was a period of time when Tremec did not polish the shift lugs which made the shifting ponderous under load, especially shifting 2-3. You can retrofit a set of polished shift lugs for very little cash.
I have over 2600 TKOs under my belt and there is one other thing that is universally misunderstood about this transmission among guys who are used to Muncies. Invariably customers want to shift from second to third in a Z pattern, shoving the shifter up,over and up. The TKO has a VERY narrow shift pattern and some pretty heavy centering springs, especially in shifters from companies like ours who sell kits.
With the TKO, the fasted shifts will be by simply placing your open hand on the ball and pushing forward, letting the centering springs do the work. When I demonstrate this live to frustrated customers at shows they almost always call or e-mail to tell me that with a little practice the shifting is markedly improved.
I agree that the Muncie is a quicker shifter under load, but the TKO can be very livable given the proper treatment and the polished lugs. Hope this helps!
I have over 2600 TKOs under my belt and there is one other thing that is universally misunderstood about this transmission among guys who are used to Muncies. Invariably customers want to shift from second to third in a Z pattern, shoving the shifter up,over and up. The TKO has a VERY narrow shift pattern and some pretty heavy centering springs, especially in shifters from companies like ours who sell kits.
With the TKO, the fasted shifts will be by simply placing your open hand on the ball and pushing forward, letting the centering springs do the work. When I demonstrate this live to frustrated customers at shows they almost always call or e-mail to tell me that with a little practice the shifting is markedly improved.
I agree that the Muncie is a quicker shifter under load, but the TKO can be very livable given the proper treatment and the polished lugs. Hope this helps!
Steve
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 19,610
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From: Forked River NJ
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 283
From: Puyallup WA
Mine is out right now for this reason. My 2-3 shift at 6500 rpm has been a problem. I contacted Tremec and they explained this very problem and the solution. Mine is an early built TKO and the yknew exactly what the problem was. Of course I don't have the power that 632 has but even with my HP level it is a problem. Looking forward to smoother 2-3 shifts.
Steve
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 19,610
Likes: 778
From: Forked River NJ
Both. Mainly would just not go into gear like it was stuck in the gate. When it would go I have ground it a few times. To rectify I would just have to shift it a little slower. On a quick just shove it up is where I would have the problem.
Racer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 435
Likes: 18
From: Florida
This link has a very nice looking setup and they are well known for strength..... but its not a 4 speed. Still you should check it out, it can even come 2nd gear spragless, a weak link in the 400
http://www.extremeautomatics.com/tra...hturbo400.html
http://www.extremeautomatics.com/tra...hturbo400.html
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 283
From: Puyallup WA
This link has a very nice looking setup and they are well known for strength..... but its not a 4 speed. Still you should check it out, it can even come 2nd gear spragless, a weak link in the 400
http://www.extremeautomatics.com/tra...hturbo400.html
http://www.extremeautomatics.com/tra...hturbo400.html
Steve
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 13,012
Likes: 2,253
From: Corsicana, Tx
2020 C2 of the Year - Modified Winner
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I must have used the wrong name. I was thinking of the regular Lenco's...not that converter thing.
Awww man...you've now discovered the secret of our 28 year marriage!! Don't tell anyone!
Make a choice......I still want to go riding when I make it up there!! I mean...I never got to ride in the Ford GT! I feel deprived!
JIM
Awww man...you've now discovered the secret of our 28 year marriage!! Don't tell anyone!
Make a choice......I still want to go riding when I make it up there!! I mean...I never got to ride in the Ford GT! I feel deprived!
JIM
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 283
From: Puyallup WA
I must have used the wrong name. I was thinking of the regular Lenco's...not that converter thing.
Awww man...you've now discovered the secret of our 28 year marriage!! Don't tell anyone!
Make a choice......I still want to go riding when I make it up there!! I mean...I never got to ride in the Ford GT! I feel deprived!
JIM
Awww man...you've now discovered the secret of our 28 year marriage!! Don't tell anyone!
Make a choice......I still want to go riding when I make it up there!! I mean...I never got to ride in the Ford GT! I feel deprived!
JIM
BTW, just made another few runs yesterday. 935 rwhp! That motor just keeps on going....
Steve
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 62,198
Likes: 1
From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
Cruise-In IV Veteran
Cruise-In V Veteran
I have been looking into wider ratio transmissions myself recently. Not to sure how true it is but the super T10s are supposed to be pretty strong, and i have read in a couple of places as strong as the M22. Again not to sure how true it is, but you can pick them up on ebay for a couple o hundred bucks a pop.
Supposedly you want the transmission with the high nickel gears.
You might even be able to find a good iron case from the early years and a good set of the 9310(?) later gears and really get crazy with it.
Just a thought.
I personally like the 2.64, 1.75, 1.33, 1 ratios much better than the wide ratio muncies and the close ratio muncies are just to tall for me.
Supposedly you want the transmission with the high nickel gears.
You might even be able to find a good iron case from the early years and a good set of the 9310(?) later gears and really get crazy with it.
Just a thought.
I personally like the 2.64, 1.75, 1.33, 1 ratios much better than the wide ratio muncies and the close ratio muncies are just to tall for me.
Last edited by Guru_4_hire; Nov 23, 2008 at 06:03 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 13,012
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From: Corsicana, Tx
2020 C2 of the Year - Modified Winner
2020 Corvette of the Year (performance mods)
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You just cut a big hole in tunnel and do some console work! They DO look cool!
And you couldn't find anything easier to drive than a Lenco!
It's a Ford..but check out the in car videos of this bad boy!
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/W...ord_166416.htm
JIM
And you couldn't find anything easier to drive than a Lenco!
It's a Ford..but check out the in car videos of this bad boy!
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/W...ord_166416.htm
JIM