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Installing new lifters question?

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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 02:33 AM
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Default Installing new lifters question?

Will be Installing new lifters tomorrow, hopefully. I know to coat them well with moly lube,, but being new, they are pretty oil free, and from what i understand, there's a spring inside. Should I soak them in oil before i install them, or just install them with the moly lube, unsoaked, and the logic, if you don't mind?
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 03:31 AM
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Running,

On Hydraulic lifters, I always soak them for a day before I install them. You can force this action a little if you compress the spring with a blunt tool (something that will not hurt the lifter) while submerged in oil.

But it is always a good idea to pre-soak the lifters.

Willcox Inc.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 10:18 AM
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Just use one of your pushrods to depress each plunger a few times....once they have been submerged in oil overnight.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 10:25 AM
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The cam mfgrs seem split on this...but I presoak mine overnight in a 50/50 mix of oil and GM EOS. Builders are sometimes creatures of habit...but I can't see where this can hurt anything, and IMHO it's that bit of extra protection.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by billla
The cam mfgrs seem split on this...but I presoak mine overnight in a 50/50 mix of oil and GM EOS. Builders are sometimes creatures of habit...but I can't see where this can hurt anything, and IMHO it's that bit of extra protection.
what oil do you change to, right after breaking in the cam for 20 mins?
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 03:27 PM
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I always pre-soak.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RunningMan373
what oil do you change to, right after breaking in the cam for 20 mins?
Be sure to use an oil with high proper amounts of ZDP. If your doing a break-in, I took a video of my break-in last year. It may be helpful to you for preparation. Just PM me with your email address.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RunningMan373
what oil do you change to, right after breaking in the cam for 20 mins?
You'll get a million answers for this, and search is your friend. Key point is that you need a NON GF-4 oil, as that specification reduced the ZDDP ("zinc") additive that is critical for flat-tappet cam engines.

Most of the racing-type oils are not required to be GF-4, since they're of course never used on-road There are also now good "high milage" oils that similarly are GF-4 exempt.

Personally, I run straight 30 wt with a pint of EOS until the first regular oil change. I typically change after break-in, after 500 miles, after 1500 miles and then at 3000 miles.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 05:49 PM
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You should be able to view my Break-in Video here. It’s too big to email as an attachment.

http://jeff.siford.com/corvette/2008_05_May/startup.wmv

If you go here, you will see the procedures I went through for my build from start to finish.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...d-rebuild.html
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 07:06 PM
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i use penrite running in oil (its actually called that ).it has none of the friction modifiers that the regular oils have, its perfect for a new hydraulic motor and i leave it in in for the first 400 miles after the twenty minute run-in. i pump oil over the lifters with my oil can once they are installed and thats all.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by billla
You'll get a million answers for this, and search is your friend. Key point is that you need a NON GF-4 oil, as that specification reduced the ZDDP ("zinc") additive that is critical for flat-tappet cam engines.

Most of the racing-type oils are not required to be GF-4, since they're of course never used on-road There are also now good "high milage" oils that similarly are GF-4 exempt.

Personally, I run straight 30 wt with a pint of EOS until the first regular oil change. I typically change after break-in, after 500 miles, after 1500 miles and then at 3000 miles.
But if you have a hydraulic cam and hydraulic lifters, you don't care about ZDDP, right? At least that's my understanding...
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by VCuomo
But if you have a hydraulic cam and hydraulic lifters, you don't care about ZDDP, right? At least that's my understanding...
You mean roller cam and lifters ? Even if that's what you meant I still run 20W50 Brad Penn semi-synthetic racing oil it has high levels of ZDDP. My buddies race engine shop buys if by the case, matter of fact so do I
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MotorHead
You mean roller cam and lifters ? Even if that's what you meant I still run 20W50 Brad Penn semi-synthetic racing oil it has high levels of ZDDP. My buddies race engine shop buys if by the case, matter of fact so do I
Actually, I mean "hydraulic roller cam and hydraulic roller lifters".

Last edited by VCuomo; Jun 18, 2009 at 11:29 PM.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 11:40 PM
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New lifters on your old camshaft?Good luck with that one...
Can't believe that people still think they need to be pre-oiled or soaked,thought that myth died in the seventies.
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Old Jun 18, 2009 | 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tfi racing
New lifters on your old camshaft?Good luck with that one...
Can't believe that people still think they need to be pre-oiled or soaked,thought that myth died in the seventies.
No, actually new Lunati lifters on a new Lunati cam,,, thanks for your 2c

Originally Posted by VCuomo
Actually, I mean "hydraulic roller cam and hydraulic roller lifters".
No, this is what needs the high zinc. Rollers are less 'dependent'
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Old Jun 19, 2009 | 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by tfi racing
New lifters on your old camshaft?Good luck with that one...
Can't believe that people still think they need to be pre-oiled or soaked,thought that myth died in the seventies.
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Old Jun 19, 2009 | 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RunningMan373
No, this is what needs the high zinc. Rollers are less 'dependent'
Pretty sure it's flat tappet cams/lifters that need the zinc. Here are quotes from ZDDPlus.com (emphasis added):

After 70+ years of trouble-free, metal-metal engine protection, the E.P.A. is forcing ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, containing both Zinc and Phosphorus) from domestic motor oil. If your engine was designed prior to the 1990s, your non-roller lifters require ZDDP in your motor oil to avoid premature deterioration.
and

As part of an effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the U.S. EPA offers vehicle manufacturers "credits" for early implementation as well as penalties for violation of emission reduction standards. The EPA's program called for 100,000-mile catalytic converter life by 2004, 120,000 miles by 2007, and 150,000 miles by 2009. To achieve these goals, automotive manufacturers have pressured their oil suppliers to remove substances from motor oils that would shorten the service life, including the proven EP (extreme pressure) additive ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). Zinc and phosphorus from the ZDDP can be present in small amounts in the exhaust gas of an engine depending on the amount of oil which is consumed in combustion. These elements can coat the catalyst reducing the amount of catalyst exposed to the exhaust gases, ultimately increasing emissions at the tailpipe. As a result of the EPA mandate, the ZDDP level in engine oils has been declining since the mid-1990s, roughly coinciding with the implementation of OBDII.

ZDDP has been an important additive to engine oils for over 70 years, and has an excellent track record at protecting the sliding metal-to-metal cam lifter interface. Historically, ZDDP has been added to oils in amounts resulting in approximately 0.15% phosphorus, and 0.18% zinc. ZDDP protects by creating a film on cams and flat lifter contact points in response to the extreme pressure and heat at the contact point. The film of zinc and phosphorus compounds provides a sacrificial wear surface protecting the base metal of the cam and lifter from wear. In the course of normal service, this conversion of ZDDP to zinc and phosphorus compounds depletes the ZDDP level in the oil. Studies show that depending on the specific engine and severity of duty, after 2000-4000 miles of operation, the level of ZDDP can drop below that considered adequate to provide wear protection to the cam and lifters.

According to the SAE Tech Bulletin # 770087 [1] , operation of a flat tappet engine without adequate EP additives such as ZDDP quickly leads to lifter foot scuffing and cam lobe wear. Camshafts are typically only surface hardened leaving the core ductile for strength. According to the SAE Bulletin, once cam lobe wear reaches 0.0002, "subsequent wear is usually rapid and catastrophic." Two ten-thousandths of an inch is one fifth the thickness of an average human hair.

In order to make engines last in the absence of ZDDP, virtually all IC (internal combustion) engines designed in the last ten years utilize roller lifters. Today, ZDDP has been removed from practically all automotive engine oils, rendering them unsuitable for use with older engines with non-roller lifters.
Good luck with your new setup - I've got a Lunati hydraulic roller cam in my '72. Runs great!

Last edited by VCuomo; Jun 19, 2009 at 07:46 PM.
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Old Jun 19, 2009 | 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by FB007
....it just gives them another topic to "bench race" about as they over think and try to out do reality....jmo.....
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Old Jun 19, 2009 | 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by gingerbreadman1977
i use penrite running in oil (its actually called that ).it has none of the friction modifiers that the regular oils have, its perfect for a new hydraulic motor and i leave it in in for the first 400 miles after the twenty minute run-in. i pump oil over the lifters with my oil can once they are installed and thats all.
good plan.....
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Old Jun 19, 2009 | 04:18 PM
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VCuomo has it right - the GF-4 specification was a direct response to virtually all current engines being OHC or roller-tappet in-block cams. ZDDP has emissions implications and reduces the life of catalytic converters as noted.

Lifters don't NEED to be soaked by any means - but I can't see the harm in it. For a lot of guys, that $3K+ investment is a big chunk and a little extra care in every step of assembly is just smart. CompCams noted that it's not needed, but not harmful...so why NOT?

Last edited by billla; Jun 20, 2009 at 11:57 AM.
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