Zinc In Oil for ZZ3
07-31-2009, 01:39 AM
#21
Le Mans Master
I am interested if you have a list or a few examples of current flat-tappet engines IMHO, there are darn few with none that come to mind immediately...
07-31-2009, 01:43 AM
#22
Le Mans Master
)
07-31-2009, 02:25 AM
#23
Le Mans Master
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C3 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
Now I'm paranoid!
On 06-09-02 I installed this motor, and for the last 35,000 miles, I have used straight 30W Valvoline in it ever since, now I see all these posts that there is not enough ZDDP and that my cam will wear out! I change the oil every 3 months which was less than every 900 miles. Now everyone has me paranoid so I'll switch to Valvoline 20-50 which claims to be off road oil but has more ZDDP. Is this a good choice? PG.
07-31-2009, 03:31 AM
#25
Melting Slicks
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Hi
Always interesting to read this oil threads.
Question from a stupid : Can an oil have too much Zinc in it ? Meaning if I simply add the Zinc additive regardless if there is already some in the oil, will this harm the engine ?
Reading all this indicates to me that it will be very difficult to find the correct oil. I am using Diesel oil also because of the Zinc content ( hopefully ) and also because I got told that it will be better for the BB crankshaft due to the enormous torque on the journals .
Rgds. Günther
Always interesting to read this oil threads.
Question from a stupid : Can an oil have too much Zinc in it ? Meaning if I simply add the Zinc additive regardless if there is already some in the oil, will this harm the engine ?
Reading all this indicates to me that it will be very difficult to find the correct oil. I am using Diesel oil also because of the Zinc content ( hopefully ) and also because I got told that it will be better for the BB crankshaft due to the enormous torque on the journals .
Rgds. Günther
07-31-2009, 07:35 AM
#26
Burning Brakes
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Many crate motors come with flat tappet cams. Most of the reason is cost. Rollers are usually more expensive. I use VR1 Racing Oil in my crate motor and I add a bottle of Comp Cams additive. In new motors the zinc burns out the O2 sensor and in some cases the catalytic converter.
Here is an excerpt from the Joe Gibbs Racing Group:
ALL "ZINC" IS NOT THE SAME
Zinc (ZDDP) is not a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc must react with heat and load to create the sacrificial film that allows Zinc to protect flat-tappet camshafts and other highly loaded engine parts. Not all Zinc additives react under the same level of heat and load.
Some Zinc additives require more heat and more load to activate than other Zinc additives. As a result, not all “High Zinc” oils have the same activation rate. The Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil uses a “Fast Burn” ZDDP that activates quickly.
Here is an excerpt from the Joe Gibbs Racing Group:
ALL "ZINC" IS NOT THE SAME
Zinc (ZDDP) is not a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc must react with heat and load to create the sacrificial film that allows Zinc to protect flat-tappet camshafts and other highly loaded engine parts. Not all Zinc additives react under the same level of heat and load.
Some Zinc additives require more heat and more load to activate than other Zinc additives. As a result, not all “High Zinc” oils have the same activation rate. The Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil uses a “Fast Burn” ZDDP that activates quickly.
07-31-2009, 08:12 AM
#27
Instructor
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In answer to WESCH's question "can an oil have too much zinc in it ?" I found this in what is supposed to be a GM Tech bulletin from a Bob Olree at GM Powertrains and Lubricants Group. I can not vouch for its authenticity.
"A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."
Later in this bulletin he says modern oils with 0.08% zddp are adequate for older flat-tappet engines and the belief that higher levels are required is a myth.
I personally use a higher zddp level oil because I figure better safe than sorry, but it looks like you can go too far.
"A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."
Later in this bulletin he says modern oils with 0.08% zddp are adequate for older flat-tappet engines and the belief that higher levels are required is a myth.
I personally use a higher zddp level oil because I figure better safe than sorry, but it looks like you can go too far.
07-31-2009, 08:23 AM
#28
Drifting
Many crate motors come with flat tappet cams. Most of the reason is cost. Rollers are usually more expensive. I use VR1 Racing Oil in my crate motor and I add a bottle of Comp Cams additive. In new motors the zinc burns out the O2 sensor and in some cases the catalytic converter.
Here is an excerpt from the Joe Gibbs Racing Group:
ALL "ZINC" IS NOT THE SAME
Zinc (ZDDP) is not a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc must react with heat and load to create the sacrificial film that allows Zinc to protect flat-tappet camshafts and other highly loaded engine parts. Not all Zinc additives react under the same level of heat and load.
Some Zinc additives require more heat and more load to activate than other Zinc additives. As a result, not all “High Zinc” oils have the same activation rate. The Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil uses a “Fast Burn” ZDDP that activates quickly.
Here is an excerpt from the Joe Gibbs Racing Group:
ALL "ZINC" IS NOT THE SAME
Zinc (ZDDP) is not a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc must react with heat and load to create the sacrificial film that allows Zinc to protect flat-tappet camshafts and other highly loaded engine parts. Not all Zinc additives react under the same level of heat and load.
Some Zinc additives require more heat and more load to activate than other Zinc additives. As a result, not all “High Zinc” oils have the same activation rate. The Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil uses a “Fast Burn” ZDDP that activates quickly.
07-31-2009, 08:24 AM
#29
Drifting
In answer to WESCH's question "can an oil have too much zinc in it ?" I found this in what is supposed to be a GM Tech bulletin from a Bob Olree at GM Powertrains and Lubricants Group. I can not vouch for its authenticity.
"A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."
Later in this bulletin he says modern oils with 0.08% zddp are adequate for older flat-tappet engines and the belief that higher levels are required is a myth.
I personally use a higher zddp level oil because I figure better safe than sorry, but it looks like you can go too far.
"A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."
Later in this bulletin he says modern oils with 0.08% zddp are adequate for older flat-tappet engines and the belief that higher levels are required is a myth.
I personally use a higher zddp level oil because I figure better safe than sorry, but it looks like you can go too far.
07-31-2009, 08:28 AM
#30
Racer
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but OHC stuff like ford focus etc. still use flat tappet lifters. w/o issue.
07-31-2009, 09:36 AM
#31
Le Mans Master
But let's be clear - oils without the wow-bang-super-decoding-ring ZDDP, just standard oils with > 1400 PPM worked just fine for a long time before Mr. Gibb's oil showed up
So I agree it's good stuff, but to cast FUD and say "beware - other oils with just ZDDP won't protect your engine" is just marketing
IMHO
So I agree it's good stuff, but to cast FUD and say "beware - other oils with just ZDDP won't protect your engine" is just marketing
IMHO
07-31-2009, 09:39 AM
#32
Le Mans Master
"A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."
Later in this bulletin he says modern oils with 0.08% zddp are adequate for older flat-tappet engines and the belief that higher levels are required is a myth.
Later in this bulletin he says modern oils with 0.08% zddp are adequate for older flat-tappet engines and the belief that higher levels are required is a myth.
I'd agree the target is around 1400 - 1600 PPM and dumping in 2 pints of EOS or CompCam stuff is just going to cause problems.
I'd have to question the 800 PPM not causing problems, especially without more context.
07-31-2009, 09:41 AM
#33
Le Mans Master
The LS series would be one example of a good cam-in-block engine, agreed?
07-31-2009, 10:46 AM
#34
Melting Slicks
I appreciate your directness concerning the source - anyone have access to these types of bulletins?
I'd agree the target is around 1400 - 1600 PPM and dumping in 2 pints of EOS or CompCam stuff is just going to cause problems.
I'd have to question the 800 PPM not causing problems, especially without more context.
I'd agree the target is around 1400 - 1600 PPM and dumping in 2 pints of EOS or CompCam stuff is just going to cause problems.
I'd have to question the 800 PPM not causing problems, especially without more context.
http://www.westcoastwillys.com/WCW_Sept08_small.pdf
07-31-2009, 11:07 AM
#35
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I read the info that I quoted earlier about too much zddp on "Bob is the oil guy" website. Here is the link with the whole bulletin.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1049812
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1049812
07-31-2009, 12:32 PM
#36
Drifting
Based on my un-scientific research: The old Rotella had 1400 ppm Zinc content, the newer stuff has 1200 ppm. How much is required? I dunno. Probably depends on valve spring pressure. As far as racing oils, the question is do they have the necessary detergent additives? So for my stock 68 L36 and stock 65 442 I am using Rotella. A little Zink additive is probably good insurance. Of course, none of us wants to damage one of our numbers engines (or any engine). The future includes roller tappets. I will continue to listen others opinions and findings. FYI, I kinda struggle with high priced oils. Just the cheap-skate in me...
07-31-2009, 01:57 PM
#37
Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13,'19-'20
Not a major oil or automotive co bulletin but an article in the Corvette Restorer from last summer by a former GM engine systems engineer. Article starts on page 3.
http://www.westcoastwillys.com/WCW_Sept08_small.pdf
http://www.westcoastwillys.com/WCW_Sept08_small.pdf
To me this suggest that all the hysteria over the new Rotella is just that...hysteria!
07-31-2009, 04:42 PM
#38
Le Mans Master
Mu understanding from some research and talking to engine "experts" is that 1,200 PPM ZDDP is the magic number, not 1,400-1,600 PPM. And yes, more is not necessarily better!
Diesel oils do not have any advantage over conventional oils any longer today-ie Shell Rotellla!
Group IV-True Synthetic-Mobil 1 15W-50 Racing Only-1,200 PPM ZDDP-$23 for 5 quarts at Walmart-Cannot be beat period-Full Synthetic, 1,200 PPM ZDDP, and $23 5 quart jug!
Diesel oils do not have any advantage over conventional oils any longer today-ie Shell Rotellla!
Group IV-True Synthetic-Mobil 1 15W-50 Racing Only-1,200 PPM ZDDP-$23 for 5 quarts at Walmart-Cannot be beat period-Full Synthetic, 1,200 PPM ZDDP, and $23 5 quart jug!
07-31-2009, 07:31 PM
#39
Team Owner
Why fart around. Just dump in some ZZDP additive with regular SAE oil as I showed above. Heck only $10.00 per oil change. For me that's once a year. You can buy it on EBay all day long.
Last edited by Paul L; 07-31-2009 at 07:35 PM.
08-01-2009, 04:39 AM
#40
Melting Slicks
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Hi
Does it mention on the ZZDPlus bottle how much this bottle will increase the Zinc level in PPM in let's say 5 Qts of oil ?
As we heard here, too much of Zinc , so above 1.200 PPM is not OK.
Having a oil with already 800 PPM and adding a full bottle of ZZDPlus could raise the level to 2.000 PPM ( if the additive bottle raises it to 1200 or so ).
So knowing how much it will raise the Zinc level would make it easier to calculate the amount of additive one should use for optimum PPM.
Rgds. Günther
Does it mention on the ZZDPlus bottle how much this bottle will increase the Zinc level in PPM in let's say 5 Qts of oil ?
As we heard here, too much of Zinc , so above 1.200 PPM is not OK.
Having a oil with already 800 PPM and adding a full bottle of ZZDPlus could raise the level to 2.000 PPM ( if the additive bottle raises it to 1200 or so ).
So knowing how much it will raise the Zinc level would make it easier to calculate the amount of additive one should use for optimum PPM.
Rgds. Günther