head choice
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
That is pretty strange isn't it. The AFR is a little different animal than other designs. Small port, big flow.
The AFR 195 is probably the most versatile small block head made. It will give you great performance on a 400 HP street car but is capable of providing all a 550 HP engine needs. The AFR 195 is still only 195 CC port size. 195 port size maintains decent port velocity yet has the capability to flow more volume than a lot of much bigger port heads. Better VE and fuel still stays atomized without dropping out at lower RPM. The key to a good head is getting the most flow through the smallest port for across the entire RPM range power.
I am still all about matching all your components for your intended use. The AFR 195 matches the port opening and operating range of his intake, operating range of his cam and suits his convertor stall. These well matched components will probably make more power throughout the operating range than the mismatch of ports using this intake with 180 heads. Or maybe not. Like to see a DD sheet on both just out of curiosity.
Last edited by 63mako; Nov 18, 2009 at 11:06 PM.
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
One thing to consider is flow, and what the flow is at each .050" or .100" of valve lift. His cam only goes to .500" and therefore the big flow numbers of the 195's above .500" are wasted. You have to look and compare the flow numbers of the heads at the .300 to .500" and see how much difference there is.
Also I wouldn't rely to much on what summit says about RPM range on the 180's. Especially when they put this in brackets after what they say the RPM range is "the perfect street heads for 327 to 350 c.i.d. engines in the idle to 5,500 rpm operating range (higher rpm ranges are possible, depending on the combination of parts)"
It is nice to see you finally seeing the light though, no vacuum advance on the 427ci you just built and now heads that flow ~285cfm on a mild 350ci. You stick with me and you will start making some serious power
Also I wouldn't rely to much on what summit says about RPM range on the 180's. Especially when they put this in brackets after what they say the RPM range is "the perfect street heads for 327 to 350 c.i.d. engines in the idle to 5,500 rpm operating range (higher rpm ranges are possible, depending on the combination of parts)"
It is nice to see you finally seeing the light though, no vacuum advance on the 427ci you just built and now heads that flow ~285cfm on a mild 350ci. You stick with me and you will start making some serious power
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Small ports & big flow is the ultimate combination.
Small ports and big ports with the same flow will make roughly the same power on the dyno and turn roughly the same times at the strip, but the small port head will have much better throttle response for dynamic driving conditions (i.e. anything other than drag racing) & will just "feel" better all around.
+1 for AFRs!
BTW - I love this video of Tony Mamo's (the guy responsible for AFR's flow characteristics) car turning a "high 13"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz70IVvUu30
Small ports and big ports with the same flow will make roughly the same power on the dyno and turn roughly the same times at the strip, but the small port head will have much better throttle response for dynamic driving conditions (i.e. anything other than drag racing) & will just "feel" better all around.
+1 for AFRs!
BTW - I love this video of Tony Mamo's (the guy responsible for AFR's flow characteristics) car turning a "high 13"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz70IVvUu30
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
One thing to consider is flow, and what the flow is at each .050" or .100" of valve lift. His cam only goes to .500" and therefore the big flow numbers of the 195's above .500" are wasted. You have to look and compare the flow numbers of the heads at the .300 to .500" and see how much difference there is.
Also I wouldn't rely to much on what summit says about RPM range on the 180's. Especially when they put this in brackets after what they say the RPM range is "the perfect street heads for 327 to 350 c.i.d. engines in the idle to 5,500 rpm operating range (higher rpm ranges are possible, depending on the combination of parts)"
It is nice to see you finally seeing the light though, no vacuum advance on the 427ci you just built and now heads that flow ~285cfm on a mild 350ci. You stick with me and you will start making some serious power
Also I wouldn't rely to much on what summit says about RPM range on the 180's. Especially when they put this in brackets after what they say the RPM range is "the perfect street heads for 327 to 350 c.i.d. engines in the idle to 5,500 rpm operating range (higher rpm ranges are possible, depending on the combination of parts)"
It is nice to see you finally seeing the light though, no vacuum advance on the 427ci you just built and now heads that flow ~285cfm on a mild 350ci. You stick with me and you will start making some serious power
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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I would get the brodix and use the cost difference on a hyd roller cam. oil is changing.
your probably going to want 1.6 ratio rockers on your intake valve of either head to prevent sonic choking after 5000 rpm.
here is a comparison of a 327 with ported stockers and a smaller cam and AFR 210s with a bigger cam.
your probably going to want 1.6 ratio rockers on your intake valve of either head to prevent sonic choking after 5000 rpm.
here is a comparison of a 327 with ported stockers and a smaller cam and AFR 210s with a bigger cam.
Last edited by Guru_4_hire; Nov 19, 2009 at 07:46 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: St Louis MO
If you read the summit page the AFR 180 is for a 327 to 350 motor idle to 5500 RPM. The AFR 195 is for a 350 to 400 motor operating in the 2000 to 6500 range. Your cam operating range is 1800 to 6200. Your intake operating range is 1500 to 6500. You have a 2400 stall. Depends a lot on your build specs and intended use. A 327 that pulls to 7000+ and sees a lot of track time could use the AFR 195. A street 383 that will never see 5500 could use a 180. Your also planning on using the same intake with either head. I don't think you will give up much bottom end with the AFR 195. Probably stronger mid range and definitely stronger up top. This gets asked a lot on builds similar to yours. Would really like tio see a desktop dyno comparison on your build of both heads.
One other thing the port size on the Edlebrock intake is 1.28 x 2.08. The AFR 195 port size is 1.28 x 2.08
One other thing the port size on the Edlebrock intake is 1.28 x 2.08. The AFR 195 port size is 1.28 x 2.08
I use this same manifold on my 406 with AFR 210s (old style) without port matching. There was a notable height difference as the ports on the AFRs are over 1/8 inch taller, but I decided NOT to port match as I wanted to try them as they were without the risk of losing good low and mid rpm response. (I used FelPro 1205 gaskets). Results have been fantastic - mileage in upper teens, quarter in high 11s with closed exhaust, Q-jet and 3.08s! (I could run low 11s with a gear change, but it would hurt mileage -
) So, I think the no4n4me is on the right track with the 7104 and AFR 195s.__________________
1978 Corvette
406 SBC AFR heads Lunati roller Quadrajet TH-350 3.08
11.59 sec / 118.9 mph 1/4 mile
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
63Mako - I checked Edelbrock's website (http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...f_rpm-sb.shtml) which says that the exit port of the 7104 manifold used by no4n4me is 1.16 X 1.92.
I use this same manifold on my 406 with AFR 210s (old style) without port matching. There was a notable height difference as the ports on the AFRs are over 1/8 inch taller, but I decided NOT to port match as I wanted to try them as they were without the risk of losing good low and mid rpm response. (I used FelPro 1205 gaskets). Results have been fantastic - mileage in upper teens, quarter in high 11s with closed exhaust, Q-jet and 3.08s! (I could run low 11s with a gear change, but it would hurt mileage -) So, I think the no4n4me is on the right track with the 7104 and AFR 195s.
__________________
1978 Corvette
406 SBC AFR heads Lunati roller Quadrajet TH-350 3.08
11.59 sec / 118.9 mph 1/4 mile
I use this same manifold on my 406 with AFR 210s (old style) without port matching. There was a notable height difference as the ports on the AFRs are over 1/8 inch taller, but I decided NOT to port match as I wanted to try them as they were without the risk of losing good low and mid rpm response. (I used FelPro 1205 gaskets). Results have been fantastic - mileage in upper teens, quarter in high 11s with closed exhaust, Q-jet and 3.08s! (I could run low 11s with a gear change, but it would hurt mileage -
) So, I think the no4n4me is on the right track with the 7104 and AFR 195s.__________________
1978 Corvette
406 SBC AFR heads Lunati roller Quadrajet TH-350 3.08
11.59 sec / 118.9 mph 1/4 mile
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Race Director
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
I would get the brodix and use the cost difference on a hyd roller cam. oil is changing.
your probably going to want 1.6 ratio rockers on your intake valve of either head to prevent sonic choking after 5000 rpm.
here is a comparison of a 327 with ported stockers and a smaller cam and AFR 210s with a bigger cam.
your probably going to want 1.6 ratio rockers on your intake valve of either head to prevent sonic choking after 5000 rpm.
here is a comparison of a 327 with ported stockers and a smaller cam and AFR 210s with a bigger cam.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,317
Likes: 111
From: St Louis MO
I would get the brodix and use the cost difference on a hyd roller cam. oil is changing.
your probably going to want 1.6 ratio rockers on your intake valve of either head to prevent sonic choking after 5000 rpm.
here is a comparison of a 327 with ported stockers and a smaller cam and AFR 210s with a bigger cam.
your probably going to want 1.6 ratio rockers on your intake valve of either head to prevent sonic choking after 5000 rpm.
here is a comparison of a 327 with ported stockers and a smaller cam and AFR 210s with a bigger cam.
Where did this come from? I'd like to see what the rest of the configuration was.
Thanks!
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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You sometimes have to wait awhile but there is sometimes an endless amount of data to pour over.
Last edited by Guru_4_hire; Nov 19, 2009 at 03:31 PM.
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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That is what I was talking about. The 210 port is too big for a 327. Loss of bottom end due to reduced port velocity, poor atomization at low RPM. Part of that is also the cam change. Would really like to see a DD simulation on the OP's 350 build plugging in the edelbrock heads, brodix IK 180, AFR 180 and the AFR 195 with his intake choice. All other parameters the same.
Its about the right velocity too much and too little is bad, in a street motor too much is a preferable problem.
210s on a 7000rpm 327 isnt unreasonable when one of the winning motors(top 5) was a 302 with AFR 195s.
I think the cam was too big for the RPM range of the competition.
What I do like about AFR heads, are the larger valves. Their 195 heads come with 2.05 and 2.08 valves. The big valves keep rocker ratios reasonable on street motors. Most of the rest is marketing fluff, YMMV.
But in a warmed over 350 we are talking about .54 lift
Last edited by Guru_4_hire; Nov 19, 2009 at 03:40 PM.
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Either bad information on the internet or I am wrong again! I never really ever checked the flow numbers on the 180 eliminators because I never considered them. Just assumed they would be proportionally lower. Check this site and you can compare all the heads the OP is considering. This just does not seem possible but this site shows the flow numbers on the AFR 180 eliminator and the AFR 195 eliminator as being almost identical up to .500 lift. If this is the case the 180 eliminator with your cam lift is the better choice. Check the site:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...%20Eliminators
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...%20Eliminators
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
From AFR website:
AFR 180 street eliminator flow numbers:
.400 lift 240 int 190 ex
.500 lift 260 int 207 ex
AFR 180 competition ported Eliminator flow numbers:
.400 lift 247 int 200 ex
.500 lift 270 int 217 ex
AFR 195 Street eliminator flow numbers.
.400 lift 243 int 190 ex
.500 lift 274 int 207 ex
AFR 195 competition ported Eliminator flow numbers:
.400 lift 248 int 200 ex
.500 lift 280 int 217 ex
.600 lift 300 int 225 ex
AFR 210 street flow numbers:
.400 lift 249 int 192 ex
.500 lift 279 int 210 ex
.600 lift 295 int 220 ex
AFR 210 Competition ported flow numbers:
.400 lift 257 int 214 ex
.500 lift 290 int 225 ex
.600 lift 308 int 235 ex
Your choice on what you do. You really won't go wrong with either choice. You are right between the 180 and 195. The competition ported AFR 180 has crazy flow for a 180 head. Compare it to the street 210 at .400 and .500 lift
AFR 180 street eliminator flow numbers:
.400 lift 240 int 190 ex
.500 lift 260 int 207 ex
AFR 180 competition ported Eliminator flow numbers:
.400 lift 247 int 200 ex
.500 lift 270 int 217 ex
AFR 195 Street eliminator flow numbers.
.400 lift 243 int 190 ex
.500 lift 274 int 207 ex
AFR 195 competition ported Eliminator flow numbers:
.400 lift 248 int 200 ex
.500 lift 280 int 217 ex
.600 lift 300 int 225 ex
AFR 210 street flow numbers:
.400 lift 249 int 192 ex
.500 lift 279 int 210 ex
.600 lift 295 int 220 ex
AFR 210 Competition ported flow numbers:
.400 lift 257 int 214 ex
.500 lift 290 int 225 ex
.600 lift 308 int 235 ex
Your choice on what you do. You really won't go wrong with either choice. You are right between the 180 and 195. The competition ported AFR 180 has crazy flow for a 180 head. Compare it to the street 210 at .400 and .500 lift
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From: ord nebraska
63mako, WOW thank you for all the information!
I am thinking the 180's now. If I have this right the 180's almost flow as the 195's but with the smaller port size they should have a little better power down low right?
Thanks, Marty
Very very informative post! I am learning much. Thanks again.
I am thinking the 180's now. If I have this right the 180's almost flow as the 195's but with the smaller port size they should have a little better power down low right?
Thanks, Marty
Very very informative post! I am learning much. Thanks again.
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From: ord nebraska
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From: Forked River NJ
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From: ord nebraska
Full roller would be awesome. I wish we could go roller cam too but with the carpet set and brake kit along with this engine upgrade my budget is getting tight for this round. 
Funny thing about it is I am the one trying to hold the spending down while the Mrs. is yelling more, more, more...
Funny thing about it is I am the one trying to hold the spending down while the Mrs. is yelling more, more, more...