head choice
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
I would get the brodix and use the cost difference on a hyd roller cam. oil is changing.
your probably going to want 1.6 ratio rockers on your intake valve of either head to prevent sonic choking after 5000 rpm.
here is a comparison of a 327 with ported stockers and a smaller cam and AFR 210s with a bigger cam.
your probably going to want 1.6 ratio rockers on your intake valve of either head to prevent sonic choking after 5000 rpm.
here is a comparison of a 327 with ported stockers and a smaller cam and AFR 210s with a bigger cam.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
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It is possible to have too much port velocity too. You would be suprised at how big of a port you need and how much lift you need for some of the higher RPM ranges.
Its about the right velocity too much and too little is bad, in a street motor too much is a preferable problem.
210s on a 7000rpm 327 isnt unreasonable when one of the winning motors(top 5) was a 302 with AFR 195s.
I think the cam was too big for the RPM range of the competition.
What I do like about AFR heads, are the larger valves. Their 195 heads come with 2.05 and 2.08 valves. The big valves keep rocker ratios reasonable on street motors. Most of the rest is marketing fluff, YMMV.
But in a warmed over 350 we are talking about .54 lift
Its about the right velocity too much and too little is bad, in a street motor too much is a preferable problem.
210s on a 7000rpm 327 isnt unreasonable when one of the winning motors(top 5) was a 302 with AFR 195s.
I think the cam was too big for the RPM range of the competition.
What I do like about AFR heads, are the larger valves. Their 195 heads come with 2.05 and 2.08 valves. The big valves keep rocker ratios reasonable on street motors. Most of the rest is marketing fluff, YMMV.
But in a warmed over 350 we are talking about .54 lift
as you know the engine masters is a competition best overall tq/hp numbers 2500 to 6500 rpm, 2008 Jon Kasse used an 1150 dominator on a 400 ford cleaveland to win the competition.
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
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From: All humans are vermin in the eyes of Guru VA
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From: Valencia CA
Someone alerted me to this thread...
If you quickly run down the list of components you plan on running, compression ratio, and the type of driving you plan to use it for I would be happy to throw my two cents in regarding what I think might work best and why.
Also, weight of the car, type of transmission, and rear end ratio is also important.
Right off the bat I would say unless the owner is very conservative and wants to place alot of emphasis on part throttle response at low RPM, the 195 street heads make a solid choice because they will work OK down low on a 350 with the right complimenting components (an Air Gap dual plane really helps with the 195's) and run strong upstairs to 6500 or so making very solid peak numbers.
Also, the other thing I like about the larger head choice is most people bitten by the HP bug never lose the need or desire for MORE, and the 195 street eliminators would be a much better choice on a potential 383 or 400 CID piece your not thinking about yet but might be 2-3 years from now.
The new 195 street Elim head flows 10 CFM's better than our former version in the Comp package. They are the bargain of this decade in a bolt on affordable street head that is capable of well over 500 HP in the right combination (fairly aggressive solid roller, 11 to 1 CR or better, ported Super Vic, 1.75 headers, etc.). Note a larger engine can make this type of power in milder trim at a lower RPM as well (displacement rules on the street).
Now if the owner doesnt ever street race, never goes to the track, is running a small cam, and just wants a bunch more power everywhere including off idle and cruising around the new 180 would still make decent peak numbers (the same or better than our former street 195's) but offer a bit more low speed part throttle performance than the same combo with our 195's.
The real reality of the situation is there isn't a bad choice to make here....only two good choices....but the more honest the guy footing the bill can be about his current and future needs, the better we can make a recommendation that just may optimize his driving style a little better over the long and short haul.
Some people reading this will think to themselves....Im a 180 guy.....others who were thinking 180 might stop and say the 195's are possibly making a bit more sense. Its really about the type of hot rodder you are more than anything else and where your priorities lie.
Spend the money and get a 180 Comp package if you cant decide and want almost the best of both worlds
Are you more confused now than ever?....LOL
-Tony
If you quickly run down the list of components you plan on running, compression ratio, and the type of driving you plan to use it for I would be happy to throw my two cents in regarding what I think might work best and why.
Also, weight of the car, type of transmission, and rear end ratio is also important.
Right off the bat I would say unless the owner is very conservative and wants to place alot of emphasis on part throttle response at low RPM, the 195 street heads make a solid choice because they will work OK down low on a 350 with the right complimenting components (an Air Gap dual plane really helps with the 195's) and run strong upstairs to 6500 or so making very solid peak numbers.
Also, the other thing I like about the larger head choice is most people bitten by the HP bug never lose the need or desire for MORE, and the 195 street eliminators would be a much better choice on a potential 383 or 400 CID piece your not thinking about yet but might be 2-3 years from now.
The new 195 street Elim head flows 10 CFM's better than our former version in the Comp package. They are the bargain of this decade in a bolt on affordable street head that is capable of well over 500 HP in the right combination (fairly aggressive solid roller, 11 to 1 CR or better, ported Super Vic, 1.75 headers, etc.). Note a larger engine can make this type of power in milder trim at a lower RPM as well (displacement rules on the street).
Now if the owner doesnt ever street race, never goes to the track, is running a small cam, and just wants a bunch more power everywhere including off idle and cruising around the new 180 would still make decent peak numbers (the same or better than our former street 195's) but offer a bit more low speed part throttle performance than the same combo with our 195's.
The real reality of the situation is there isn't a bad choice to make here....only two good choices....but the more honest the guy footing the bill can be about his current and future needs, the better we can make a recommendation that just may optimize his driving style a little better over the long and short haul.
Some people reading this will think to themselves....Im a 180 guy.....others who were thinking 180 might stop and say the 195's are possibly making a bit more sense. Its really about the type of hot rodder you are more than anything else and where your priorities lie.
Spend the money and get a 180 Comp package if you cant decide and want almost the best of both worlds
Are you more confused now than ever?....LOL
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; Nov 20, 2009 at 01:17 PM.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: 406ci SB, AFR 180 Heads - 490 HP @5,600 RPM 529 lb-ft @ 4,100 RPM
Love my AFR 180's, my engine makes 490 hp with 87 octane fuel. But I will say these C3'c are a handfull when 500 hp is unleashed, as they were not all designed for it. 
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: ord nebraska
I want to give a big thank you to all you guys that have helped me decide on heads. I ordered everything last night. I went with the 180's.
I believe it is going to make a respectable street car out of it. Only thing I did not order was head gaskets and push rods. I will have to wait till I get some measurements. Then I am sure there will be questions about that.
AFR 180cc Heads
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
Lunati flat tappet cam duration 268/276, Lift .489/.504
2400 stall converter
Lunati roller rockers 1.5
Gear drive timing gears
I believe it is going to make a respectable street car out of it. Only thing I did not order was head gaskets and push rods. I will have to wait till I get some measurements. Then I am sure there will be questions about that.
AFR 180cc Heads
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
Lunati flat tappet cam duration 268/276, Lift .489/.504
2400 stall converter
Lunati roller rockers 1.5
Gear drive timing gears
Last edited by no4n4me; Nov 20, 2009 at 08:13 PM.
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 74
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From: ord nebraska
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,771
Likes: 694
From: Maryland
St. Jude Donor '05, '09, '15
I want to give a big thank you to all you guys that have helped me decide on heads. I ordered everything last night. I went with the 180's.
I believe it is going to make a respectable street car out of it. Only thing I did not order was head gaskets and push rods. I will have to wait till I get some measurements. Then I am sure there will be questions about that.
AFR 180cc Heads
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
Lunati flat tappet cam duration 268/276, Lift .489/.504
2400 stall converter
Lunati roller rockers 1.5
Gear drive timing gears
I believe it is going to make a respectable street car out of it. Only thing I did not order was head gaskets and push rods. I will have to wait till I get some measurements. Then I am sure there will be questions about that.
AFR 180cc Heads
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
Lunati flat tappet cam duration 268/276, Lift .489/.504
2400 stall converter
Lunati roller rockers 1.5
Gear drive timing gears
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,701
Likes: 272
From: New York
Not to put a fly in the ointment. I was going to put a new set of Gear drive timing gears on my new motor. The machinist was adament that the Pete Jackson and other brands are junk unless you spend big bucks. He recommended Cloyes. You may want to start another post for "gear drive vs Timing chain"
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 7,739
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From: Unreconstructed, South Carolina
Not to put a fly in the ointment. I was going to put a new set of Gear drive timing gears on my new motor. The machinist was adament that the Pete Jackson and other brands are junk unless you spend big bucks. He recommended Cloyes. You may want to start another post for "gear drive vs Timing chain"
forget gear drive of any sort.
use a good chain & sprocket set ... ANY Cloyes will be fine for flat tappet .500" & AFR 180 FT springs ... even the cheap p/n C-3023K . I'd go for p/n 9-1100 .
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
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From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
I think it's pretty easy to net out:
- Head choice needs to be matched to the vehicle, not just the engine.
- Head choice is based on priorities for the engine. (max power, street driving, etc.)
- Flow only benefits the combo if you use it. (cam, gears, trans, driving style etc.)
- Think long-term and buy the head for where you - realistically - want to be.
- Tony is a cool guy and we're lucky to have his expertise on the forum.
Last edited by billla; Nov 24, 2009 at 11:55 AM.
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
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From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
I think it's pretty easy to net out:
- Head choice needs to be matched to the vehicle, not just the engine.
- Head choice is based on priorities for the engine. (max power, street driving, etc.)
- Flow only benefits the combo if you use it. (cam, gears, trans, driving style etc.)
- Think long-term and buy the head for where you - realistically - want to be.
- Tony is a cool guy and we're lucky to have his expertise on the forum.
Lift on line # 3 is an important consideration. The AFR 195 is much better than the 180 once you get over .500 lift. Sub .500 lift they are not so different.
with Tony though. The 180 comp ported head is the best of both worlds..............for another $600.