Top End Rebuild
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 63
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Top End Rebuild
Hey all,
I was thinking of replacing the top end of my vette, and was looking at this kit at summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-K314-350-400/
I have an 81 vette, original 350 with the smog/computer stuff removed. It now has a 750 demon, and I am installing Hooker sidepipes. I also have 3.55 rear end gears, and the stock torque converter.
Will this kit work for me?
Better options for around the same price?
Will the Roller rockers that come with the kit fit under stock height valve covers?
This car is mostly a weekend cruiser, that attends a few local car shows.
I'm looking for a bit more power then stock, nothing too crazy though.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
-Chris
I was thinking of replacing the top end of my vette, and was looking at this kit at summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-K314-350-400/
I have an 81 vette, original 350 with the smog/computer stuff removed. It now has a 750 demon, and I am installing Hooker sidepipes. I also have 3.55 rear end gears, and the stock torque converter.
Will this kit work for me?
Better options for around the same price?
Will the Roller rockers that come with the kit fit under stock height valve covers?
This car is mostly a weekend cruiser, that attends a few local car shows.
I'm looking for a bit more power then stock, nothing too crazy though.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
-Chris
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,590
Likes: 403
From: Nashville TN
St. Jude Donor '09
Looks like a pretty complete kit and price looks pretty good too. I'm leary of the kits because I'm not really sure what all I'm buying. Here are the head and cam specs that I got from the TF website. Maybe someone can comment on the specs and application. I'm almost done with my topend build which you may want to search on to see my approach.
I picked all my components separately to match my needs, skills and $$$. I picked my heads first, then matched the cam to my application. I don't know your skill level (mine is basic, but I'm learning as I go), but there is some serious expertise here and I'm sure they will jump in . . . good luck with your project
Oh yeah . . . what is your HP goal?
HEADS:
Trick Flow® Super 23® 195 Cylinder Heads for Small Block Chevrolet
Cylinder Heads, Super 23® 195, Fast As Cast, Aluminum, Assembled, 62cc Chamber, Chevy Small Block, Pair
CAM:
Trick Flow® Track Max® Camshafts for Small Block Chevrolet
Camshaft, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 266/ 272, Lift .443/ .456, Chevy, Small Block, Each
I picked all my components separately to match my needs, skills and $$$. I picked my heads first, then matched the cam to my application. I don't know your skill level (mine is basic, but I'm learning as I go), but there is some serious expertise here and I'm sure they will jump in . . . good luck with your project
Oh yeah . . . what is your HP goal?
HEADS:
Trick Flow® Super 23® 195 Cylinder Heads for Small Block Chevrolet
Cylinder Heads, Super 23® 195, Fast As Cast, Aluminum, Assembled, 62cc Chamber, Chevy Small Block, Pair
CAM:
Trick Flow® Track Max® Camshafts for Small Block Chevrolet
Camshaft, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 266/ 272, Lift .443/ .456, Chevy, Small Block, Each
Thread Starter
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 63
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Thanks for the replies so far guys!
As for HP numbers if I could see 300hp at the rear wheels I would be thrilled!
I'm not set on this kit, and wouldn't mind building a kit piece by piece, as long as I had some help =)
If by skill level you mean my ability to install all of the parts, I'm sure I can handle that (if not I have many family members that work as auto mechanics). But if you are asking my skill level on selecting parts that will work together I am a novice (never done this before).
Bozzman, were you able to use stock height valve covers with the kit?
Bozzman's HP numbers would be fine for me, but if I can get out a bit more for around the same price by piecing a kit together I would much rather do that.
If you guys have any suggestions on cam/head combos that would work for me around the same cost as the kit (with all the little bits and pieces included) Please let me know!
Thanks again,
-Chris
As for HP numbers if I could see 300hp at the rear wheels I would be thrilled!
I'm not set on this kit, and wouldn't mind building a kit piece by piece, as long as I had some help =)
If by skill level you mean my ability to install all of the parts, I'm sure I can handle that (if not I have many family members that work as auto mechanics). But if you are asking my skill level on selecting parts that will work together I am a novice (never done this before).
Bozzman, were you able to use stock height valve covers with the kit?
Bozzman's HP numbers would be fine for me, but if I can get out a bit more for around the same price by piecing a kit together I would much rather do that.
If you guys have any suggestions on cam/head combos that would work for me around the same cost as the kit (with all the little bits and pieces included) Please let me know!
Thanks again,
-Chris
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,118
From: Crossville TN
How many miles/years are on the engine? If you put new heads/cam on a worn engine, how long do you expect the crank bearings to live? If you have an L-82, the crank, pistons/rods are better able to take the additional power; L-48 parts are pretty basic. Your best bet is to do a rebuild of the engine or install a crate engine. But if that is 'not in the cards' and you upgrade the upper portion of an aging engine, just be aware that it may not last very long.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
From: Enfield CT
Chris I changed my valve covers at the time of the rebuild so I am not sure if the old valve covers will work.I think you might make less horsepower because of the type of pistons that are used in your engine vs mine.More power can be made by decking your block,using a bigger cam,or different head gaskets.Holley also makes a nice top end kit but requires zero decking the block to obtain there numbers.7t1vette also brings up the point of not making your engine to powerful because the lower end could fail,due to age ,condition,and type of parts used in the lower end.Our cars don't need to much horsepower to go fast!Look at my car is doing 13s and doesn't even have 300rwhp.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 63
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A bottom end rebuild isn't in the cards this year, maybe next year.
I did a compression test at the start of the summer and everything looked good (I don't have the specific numbers at hand)
The motor is the original 81, I believe around 120,000 miles on it.
I've had it since the 80,000 mile mark, and have given it frequent oil changes, and have babied it
The PO was an older guy who claims he treated it the same (based on the condition of the car when I bought it I have no reason not to trust him)
Anything else I can do after pulling the motor to determine the condition of the bottom end?
I'm pulling the motor out, so as long as I don't need to replace the crank, shouldn't be a big deal to put new bearings in.
I did a compression test at the start of the summer and everything looked good (I don't have the specific numbers at hand)
The motor is the original 81, I believe around 120,000 miles on it.
I've had it since the 80,000 mile mark, and have given it frequent oil changes, and have babied it
The PO was an older guy who claims he treated it the same (based on the condition of the car when I bought it I have no reason not to trust him)
Anything else I can do after pulling the motor to determine the condition of the bottom end?
I'm pulling the motor out, so as long as I don't need to replace the crank, shouldn't be a big deal to put new bearings in.
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Thread Starter
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 63
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Looks like some decent bottom end rebuild kits for under 300 from summit, maybe I'll do that as well...
Would new Connecting Rods be advisable if I went that route?
Would a kit like this work? or would it be better if I pieced the parts together?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FE...2/?image=large
Thanks,
-Chris
Would new Connecting Rods be advisable if I went that route?
Would a kit like this work? or would it be better if I pieced the parts together?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FE...2/?image=large
Thanks,
-Chris
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 7,739
Likes: 630
From: Unreconstructed, South Carolina
that kit's some $1700.
a stock L81 dish & those heads probably gonna wind up with a compression ratio just shy of 9:1. I think that cam's a decent choice for that BUT ... you sure don't need roller rockers w/ a 9:1 motor & mild cam. And those big 195cc runners major overkill here too.
a mild 9:1 motor is perfect for iron heads; probably no more than 180cc runners here .
think I'd be looking at a pair of iron heads ... vortecs, or wp srt, etc ... and a mild cam ... vortecs require a different intake (prop products p/n 52007 ok) & valvecovers.
something like this:
<$1200
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...ter/sd8060akit
$90
cam&lifter kit from summit sum-k1103
and some cheap fleabay/junkyard centerbolt valvecovers.
seems L81 also has goofy distributor & feedback elec carb & ecm ... some find those work well, others change to '80 & earlier system. Seems you've changed some/all of yours.
a stock L81 dish & those heads probably gonna wind up with a compression ratio just shy of 9:1. I think that cam's a decent choice for that BUT ... you sure don't need roller rockers w/ a 9:1 motor & mild cam. And those big 195cc runners major overkill here too.
a mild 9:1 motor is perfect for iron heads; probably no more than 180cc runners here .
think I'd be looking at a pair of iron heads ... vortecs, or wp srt, etc ... and a mild cam ... vortecs require a different intake (prop products p/n 52007 ok) & valvecovers.
something like this:
<$1200
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...ter/sd8060akit
$90
cam&lifter kit from summit sum-k1103
and some cheap fleabay/junkyard centerbolt valvecovers.
seems L81 also has goofy distributor & feedback elec carb & ecm ... some find those work well, others change to '80 & earlier system. Seems you've changed some/all of yours.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 699
Likes: 3
From: Millersville, MD
What may not last very long? "May not last very long" is an extremely broad statement.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 699
Likes: 3
From: Millersville, MD
that kit's some $1700.
a stock L81 dish & those heads probably gonna wind up with a compression ratio just shy of 9:1. I think that cam's a decent choice for that BUT ... you sure don't need roller rockers w/ a 9:1 motor & mild cam. And those big 195cc runners major overkill here too.
a mild 9:1 motor is perfect for iron heads; probably no more than 180cc runners here .
think I'd be looking at a pair of iron heads ... vortecs, or wp srt, etc ... and a mild cam ... vortecs require a different intake (prop products p/n 52007 ok) & valvecovers.
something like this:
<$1200
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...ter/sd8060akit
$90
cam&lifter kit from summit sum-k1103
and some cheap fleabay/junkyard centerbolt valvecovers.
seems L81 also has goofy distributor & feedback elec carb & ecm ... some find those work well, others change to '80 & earlier system. Seems you've changed some/all of yours.
a stock L81 dish & those heads probably gonna wind up with a compression ratio just shy of 9:1. I think that cam's a decent choice for that BUT ... you sure don't need roller rockers w/ a 9:1 motor & mild cam. And those big 195cc runners major overkill here too.
a mild 9:1 motor is perfect for iron heads; probably no more than 180cc runners here .
think I'd be looking at a pair of iron heads ... vortecs, or wp srt, etc ... and a mild cam ... vortecs require a different intake (prop products p/n 52007 ok) & valvecovers.
something like this:
<$1200
http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...ter/sd8060akit
$90
cam&lifter kit from summit sum-k1103
and some cheap fleabay/junkyard centerbolt valvecovers.
seems L81 also has goofy distributor & feedback elec carb & ecm ... some find those work well, others change to '80 & earlier system. Seems you've changed some/all of yours.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
I'd be much more likely to go the SDDP Vortec top route in this case as well. That kit is a poor match for a mild 350...and 350HP from 195cc runners?!
I also have to endorse 7T1Vette's comments regarding the risk of a top on a tired engine. I've said it many times before, but a top has a tendency to encourage a very heavy right foot - which leads to making scrap. It happens fairly often in my experience. Just something to be aware of.
I also have to endorse 7T1Vette's comments regarding the risk of a top on a tired engine. I've said it many times before, but a top has a tendency to encourage a very heavy right foot - which leads to making scrap. It happens fairly often in my experience. Just something to be aware of.
Last edited by billla; Dec 16, 2009 at 05:30 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,353
Likes: 72
From: Graceland in a Not Correctly Restored Stingray
I'll side with 7T1vette and billla and suggest you get the bottom end in shape before making any significant power upgrades. You may get away with doing it the other way around, but why take the chance? ...especially if you're already on a budget? My $.02
TSW
TSW
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,123
Likes: 433
From: Gladstone MO
C3 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
I've got to go with 7T1, billa and TSW-- I've seen guys put a good top end on a well used engine- more than once. Didn't take too long and they started using oil- the rings just couldn't take the added compression from above and went away.
It's pretty easy to roll a new set of bearings in the lower end, but the rings just about require a full on rebuild.
It's pretty easy to roll a new set of bearings in the lower end, but the rings just about require a full on rebuild.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 63
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Okay, I guess I'll have to rebuild the bottom end too.
Here is the parts list that I have so far.
If there are parts I am missing / need replacing, could you guys please make some recommendations?
I know I need pushrods timing set, and head bolts, but are there any other pieces that I'll need?
Bottom end Rebuild kit (not really sure about this)
Heads (do I need angled or straight plugs?)
Cam (No idea what I am doing selecting a cam =)
Rocker Arms (will these work under the stock height valve covers? are they any good?)
Lifters (Again, not sure about the difference in lifters)
Suggestions?
(I'm still researching things, so hopefully I'll have a better understanding of things and won't have to bug you guys much more)
Thanks for all your help so far guys!
-Chris
Here is the parts list that I have so far.
If there are parts I am missing / need replacing, could you guys please make some recommendations?
I know I need pushrods timing set, and head bolts, but are there any other pieces that I'll need?
Bottom end Rebuild kit (not really sure about this)
Heads (do I need angled or straight plugs?)
Cam (No idea what I am doing selecting a cam =)
Rocker Arms (will these work under the stock height valve covers? are they any good?)
Lifters (Again, not sure about the difference in lifters)
Suggestions?
(I'm still researching things, so hopefully I'll have a better understanding of things and won't have to bug you guys much more)
Thanks for all your help so far guys!
-Chris
Thread Starter
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 63
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I have around 120,000 miles on the vette.
I won't be doing all of the work alone, my father is going to be there to help me out. I have never done a rebuild on anything larger then a lawn mower motor, but never shy away from things like this. My father on the other hand has a great deal of experience with this sort of thing (I don't believe he has rebuilt a 350 though).
Neither of us have however hand picked "matching" performance parts.
This project is acting as more of a motivator to help get him going on his international hot-rod then anything. Seems like as good of an excuse as any to beef up the motor =)
You can find some older photos/projects on my website.
Thanks,
-Chris
I won't be doing all of the work alone, my father is going to be there to help me out. I have never done a rebuild on anything larger then a lawn mower motor, but never shy away from things like this. My father on the other hand has a great deal of experience with this sort of thing (I don't believe he has rebuilt a 350 though).
Neither of us have however hand picked "matching" performance parts.
This project is acting as more of a motivator to help get him going on his international hot-rod then anything. Seems like as good of an excuse as any to beef up the motor =)
You can find some older photos/projects on my website.
Thanks,
-Chris
Pro
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 699
Likes: 3
From: Millersville, MD
I have around 120,000 miles on the vette.
I won't be doing all of the work alone, my father is going to be there to help me out. I have never done a rebuild on anything larger then a lawn mower motor, but never shy away from things like this. My father on the other hand has a great deal of experience with this sort of thing (I don't believe he has rebuilt a 350 though).
Neither of us have however hand picked "matching" performance parts.
This project is acting as more of a motivator to help get him going on his international hot-rod then anything. Seems like as good of an excuse as any to beef up the motor =)
You can find some older photos/projects on my website.
Thanks,
-Chris
I won't be doing all of the work alone, my father is going to be there to help me out. I have never done a rebuild on anything larger then a lawn mower motor, but never shy away from things like this. My father on the other hand has a great deal of experience with this sort of thing (I don't believe he has rebuilt a 350 though).
Neither of us have however hand picked "matching" performance parts.
This project is acting as more of a motivator to help get him going on his international hot-rod then anything. Seems like as good of an excuse as any to beef up the motor =)
You can find some older photos/projects on my website.
Thanks,
-Chris
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 63
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Thanks for the kind words.
I would love to see your pics and video!
Do you have a parts list on what you installed?
We are planning on pulling the motor and starting to tear into it over the holiday weekend. I still really don't have any idea what we are going to find. It doesn't appear that the motor was ever rebuilt, but looks can be deceiving.
The compression test we did looked great, I can't for the life of me remember the numbers, I'm pretty sure they are with the rest of the cars documentation that I have.
I still haven't decided 100% that I'm going to rebuild the bottom end, I'll wait until I get things apart.
Kind of looking to get a price list together to see if I'll have to do this in stages, or if I can do it all at once.
Thanks again for your help,
-Chris
I would love to see your pics and video!
Do you have a parts list on what you installed?
We are planning on pulling the motor and starting to tear into it over the holiday weekend. I still really don't have any idea what we are going to find. It doesn't appear that the motor was ever rebuilt, but looks can be deceiving.
The compression test we did looked great, I can't for the life of me remember the numbers, I'm pretty sure they are with the rest of the cars documentation that I have.
I still haven't decided 100% that I'm going to rebuild the bottom end, I'll wait until I get things apart.
Kind of looking to get a price list together to see if I'll have to do this in stages, or if I can do it all at once.
Thanks again for your help,
-Chris