Which Timing Chain?
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 534
Likes: 2
From: Connecticut
Which Timing Chain?
Need a new timing chain set. I don't need anything to fancy. Will this one work?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts.aspx?sku=CLO-C-3023X
Or, do I need the more expensive one?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts.as...=CLO-9-3500TX9
http://www.summitracing.com/parts.aspx?sku=CLO-C-3023X
Or, do I need the more expensive one?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts.as...=CLO-9-3500TX9
Heel & Toe
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
I bought one of those cheap sets once. When I did a cam swap less than 10K later, it was junk (stretched). I think I'd go with the better one in your post for durability and the fact that it's made here, not China.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 534
Likes: 2
From: Connecticut
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,740
Likes: 3
From: Aurora Ontario
I don't understand the difference then. Other then the more expensive looks universal. The discription is more or less the same. My single roller was that gold color. I used the exact replacement. Only one slot on the crank pulley, not multiple. I'm not sure what diffrence this makes in strength if anything.
My single was just almost as thick but teeth wear solid all the way across.
Ask what the difference is. Is one a stonger metal?
FWIW I didn't change the crank pulley. It wasn't worn at all.
They call this one a no stretch http://www.ecklers.com/product.asp?p...2&dept_id=1214
Jim
My single was just almost as thick but teeth wear solid all the way across.
Ask what the difference is. Is one a stonger metal?
FWIW I didn't change the crank pulley. It wasn't worn at all.
They call this one a no stretch http://www.ecklers.com/product.asp?p...2&dept_id=1214
Jim
Last edited by jdp6000; Dec 26, 2009 at 10:10 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 1
From: Europe, France
The cheap one has a cast iron cam sprocket, while the other one has a steel billet cam sprocket and many adjustable positions for the woodruff key on crankshaft, allowing cam timing changes by +/-2°.
( -8, -6, -4, -2, 0°, +2, +4, +6 and +8° ).
About the chain itself, I think it's the same for both kits.
The cheapest is also probably made in Taiwan, the other is fully made in the USA and will probably last forever...
But if you only drive your vette a few thousand miles a year, or less, and if you have a mild cam, I think the Cloyes Gear C-3023X will be just fine.
( -8, -6, -4, -2, 0°, +2, +4, +6 and +8° ).
About the chain itself, I think it's the same for both kits.
The cheapest is also probably made in Taiwan, the other is fully made in the USA and will probably last forever...
But if you only drive your vette a few thousand miles a year, or less, and if you have a mild cam, I think the Cloyes Gear C-3023X will be just fine.
Last edited by 73StreetRace; Dec 26, 2009 at 10:36 AM.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
From: Franksville Wisconsin
I would just go with this stock type. My '81 had a double roller and was stretched pretty bad with only 10-15K miles. I went with this one : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-C-3001K/
All timing chains will stretch anyways. I'm amazed of the lack of timing chain tensioner in american V=8 engines ,seem pretty crude to me but thats the way they did it. I had a Jeep with AMC 304 I put a cam+ lifters in with new chain. After few hundred miles driving it used oil so I rebuilt the engine. I was surprised on how much stretch the chain had. When I started out it had 1/4" or little less slack after few hudred miles it had close to 7/16" slack.This is my 2 cents
I forgot to include I put the chain in link from summit in my Vette and a month later realized it had GM cam disease and had to do cam+lifters. The chain looked like the day it went in.
All timing chains will stretch anyways. I'm amazed of the lack of timing chain tensioner in american V=8 engines ,seem pretty crude to me but thats the way they did it. I had a Jeep with AMC 304 I put a cam+ lifters in with new chain. After few hundred miles driving it used oil so I rebuilt the engine. I was surprised on how much stretch the chain had. When I started out it had 1/4" or little less slack after few hudred miles it had close to 7/16" slack.This is my 2 cents
I forgot to include I put the chain in link from summit in my Vette and a month later realized it had GM cam disease and had to do cam+lifters. The chain looked like the day it went in.
Last edited by WhiteC3; Dec 26, 2009 at 10:53 AM.
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Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
This what I use http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-144984-1/
It is kind of like motorcycle helmets. If your head is not worth anything just put a $19.95 helmet on it!
It is kind of like motorcycle helmets. If your head is not worth anything just put a $19.95 helmet on it!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 14
From: A town SC
Remember the word true roller, there is a roller and a true roller.The more expensive chain likely has solid rollers on the chain where the cheaper one has the rolled steel rollers with the seam.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,986
Likes: 21
From: Columbus MN
I would just go with this stock type. My '81 had a double roller and was stretched pretty bad with only 10-15K miles. I went with this one : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-C-3001K/
All timing chains will stretch anyways. I'm amazed of the lack of timing chain tensioner in american V=8 engines ,seem pretty crude to me but thats the way they did it. I had a Jeep with AMC 304 I put a cam+ lifters in with new chain. After few hundred miles driving it used oil so I rebuilt the engine. I was surprised on how much stretch the chain had. When I started out it had 1/4" or little less slack after few hudred miles it had close to 7/16" slack.This is my 2 cents
I forgot to include I put the chain in link from summit in my Vette and a month later realized it had GM cam disease and had to do cam+lifters. The chain looked like the day it went in.
All timing chains will stretch anyways. I'm amazed of the lack of timing chain tensioner in american V=8 engines ,seem pretty crude to me but thats the way they did it. I had a Jeep with AMC 304 I put a cam+ lifters in with new chain. After few hundred miles driving it used oil so I rebuilt the engine. I was surprised on how much stretch the chain had. When I started out it had 1/4" or little less slack after few hudred miles it had close to 7/16" slack.This is my 2 cents
I forgot to include I put the chain in link from summit in my Vette and a month later realized it had GM cam disease and had to do cam+lifters. The chain looked like the day it went in.
So, what about timing gears? They can wear but they can't stretch. What are the downsides?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
The basic Cloyes double-roller is going to be 100% fine for anything making less than about 1.2 HP/CID. I've used these in 100+ engines with never any problems.
The difference between the two links is billet vs. cast sprockets - billet is not a consideration until over 1.2 HP/CID, nor are Torrington bearings, etc. The chain *might* be "higher quality" as well.
I'd be real careful playing with advancing/retarding the cam. This is a great way to move the power peaks down/up by about 500 RPM/2 degrees of advance/retard - but it also affect valve-to-piston clearance and has other side-effects as well. Best to install it straight up unless you know exactly what you want from the change.
Why do you need a new timing set?
The difference between the two links is billet vs. cast sprockets - billet is not a consideration until over 1.2 HP/CID, nor are Torrington bearings, etc. The chain *might* be "higher quality" as well.
I'd be real careful playing with advancing/retarding the cam. This is a great way to move the power peaks down/up by about 500 RPM/2 degrees of advance/retard - but it also affect valve-to-piston clearance and has other side-effects as well. Best to install it straight up unless you know exactly what you want from the change.
Why do you need a new timing set?
Last edited by billla; Dec 26, 2009 at 01:03 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 14
From: A town SC
Loss of HP due to friction and valve train harmonics.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 534
Likes: 2
From: Connecticut
The basic Cloyes double-roller is going to be 100% fine for anything making less than about 1.2 HP/CID. I've used these in 100+ engines with never any problems.
The difference between the two links is billet vs. cast sprockets - billet is not a consideration until over 1.2 HP/CID, nor are Torrington bearings, etc. The chain *might* be "higher quality" as well.
I'd be real careful playing with advancing/retarding the cam. This is a great way to move the power peaks down/up by about 500 RPM/2 degrees of advance/retard - but it also affect valve-to-piston clearance and has other side-effects as well. Best to install it straight up unless you know exactly what you want from the change.
Why do you need a new timing set?
The difference between the two links is billet vs. cast sprockets - billet is not a consideration until over 1.2 HP/CID, nor are Torrington bearings, etc. The chain *might* be "higher quality" as well.
I'd be real careful playing with advancing/retarding the cam. This is a great way to move the power peaks down/up by about 500 RPM/2 degrees of advance/retard - but it also affect valve-to-piston clearance and has other side-effects as well. Best to install it straight up unless you know exactly what you want from the change.
Why do you need a new timing set?
Thoughts? Should I do something different?
Last edited by DO2G; Dec 26, 2009 at 02:46 PM.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 508
Likes: 1
From: Olive Branch MS
A Cloyes double roller will be fine for 99% of street and street/strip builds. If you are all out racing and need or want to adjust your cam timing, get a billet one.
Remember, when you buy the Summit brand, you are buying the lowest bidder for a given part.
I can also tell you that alot of the companies that sell timing chain sets, private label Cloyes stuff.
Remember, when you buy the Summit brand, you are buying the lowest bidder for a given part.
I can also tell you that alot of the companies that sell timing chain sets, private label Cloyes stuff.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
From: Franksville Wisconsin
This what I use http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-144984-1/
It is kind of like motorcycle helmets. If your head is not worth anything just put a $19.95 helmet on it!
It is kind of like motorcycle helmets. If your head is not worth anything just put a $19.95 helmet on it!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
"While you're in there" inspect your balancer to ensure the elastomer ring isn't degraded, and take a look at the front cover seal.
Since you have to remove the fuel pump, it's also a good time to have a look there and see if it's time
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,572
Likes: 51
From: Wichita Kansas
The cheap one has a cast iron cam sprocket, while the other one has a steel billet cam sprocket and many adjustable positions for the woodruff key on crankshaft, allowing cam timing changes by +/-2°.
( -8, -6, -4, -2, 0°, +2, +4, +6 and +8° ).
About the chain itself, I think it's the same for both kits.
The cheapest is also probably made in Taiwan, the other is fully made in the USA and will probably last forever...
But if you only drive your vette a few thousand miles a year, or less, and if you have a mild cam, I think the Cloyes Gear C-3023X will be just fine.
( -8, -6, -4, -2, 0°, +2, +4, +6 and +8° ).
About the chain itself, I think it's the same for both kits.
The cheapest is also probably made in Taiwan, the other is fully made in the USA and will probably last forever...
But if you only drive your vette a few thousand miles a year, or less, and if you have a mild cam, I think the Cloyes Gear C-3023X will be just fine.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 534
Likes: 2
From: Connecticut
I was also going to replace the balancer. Any suggestions?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
That one's fine.
Other folks are going to be more help with the balancer question - I don't know the stock diameter of a '78. But this is another place where you don't need to go crazy; Pioneer is a good OEM-type brand and is resold by NAPA. You don't need a Fluidampr or something that's SFI-approved unless you're going racing or making above 1.2 HP/CID. There will certainly be other opinions, this is just mine
It's a good time to consider investing in a degreed balancer (or buy a dialback timing light), take time to verify TDC and put on an adjustable pointer. This is good prep for doing some solid tuning work per the great timing FAQ posted in this section - and making sure you get the most out of that cam swap.
More details on the cam swap would be cool, too
Other folks are going to be more help with the balancer question - I don't know the stock diameter of a '78. But this is another place where you don't need to go crazy; Pioneer is a good OEM-type brand and is resold by NAPA. You don't need a Fluidampr or something that's SFI-approved unless you're going racing or making above 1.2 HP/CID. There will certainly be other opinions, this is just mine
It's a good time to consider investing in a degreed balancer (or buy a dialback timing light), take time to verify TDC and put on an adjustable pointer. This is good prep for doing some solid tuning work per the great timing FAQ posted in this section - and making sure you get the most out of that cam swap.
More details on the cam swap would be cool, too