New AFR 210cc??
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Guys,
We started doing business with this company because they were very honorable and had a great reputation out in the field with another big name performance cylinder head manufacturer (as well as Caterpillar and other household names) . Trust me....we walked very slowly and did our homework. The bottom line is the valves they produced for us were extremely reliable out in the field (how many threads do you see about problems with our valves breaking....bad news travels fast on the Internet).
Job number one of utmost importance in a valve supplier is to provide us with a quality valve that doesn't break and they did that admirably. All of our valves from that supplier were one piece 21-4N stainless....the same high quality material used in any of the aftermarket leading suppliers "race" valves (not their street series). The problem we had occasionally with this supplier was consistency and we also had a small batch come thru with soft tips a few years back. We stepped up to the plate and R&R'ed any customer's heads that experienced abnormal wear on the tips, and even went as far as providing gaskets and reimbursing them with a $600 check to cover their labor. This is the level of customer service AFR is known to provide.
Unfortunately we didn't get the phone call or an opportunity to make things right here or we certainly would have. Fact of the matter is we stopped using that supplier shortly after the valve tip incident which was back in November of 2007, and have switched to a vendor in Argentina who has been providing us with the same durability and a more consistent fit and finish. REV, Ferrea, and other big name valves are also sourced in Argentina.
We do not install cheap parts in our cylinder heads....period. How could we offer a lifetime warranty on our castings and two years on all parts if that were the case....check our website for more info there.
I offer the OP the same thing I would offer any of you with new AFR valves that you are unhappy about....send them to us and we will pay the freight and swap them with new valves from our current supplier at no cost to you.
Regarding flow numbers, I could easily point to numerous threads showing our product flowed more than we advertise and unfortunately there are many variables when flow testing (the largest being the fixtures and the type of bench used), but the bottom line is that is another area where we stand behind our product and offer the end user a guarantee (all flow figures to be within 2% of our advertised figures). If in fact there is an issue we will address it with the heads in question and/or replace the head(s) at our discretion.....then reimburse the customer his freight costs as well as pay for the return freight. If the heads flow within our 2% guidelines then the customer is only responsible for freight both ways.....we do not charge anything additional for the time invested to "handle" and qualify the product.
And guys....at the risk of stating the obvious, please contact us first and give us the opportunity to help.
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
R&D / Product Design Mgr.
661-705-8508
We started doing business with this company because they were very honorable and had a great reputation out in the field with another big name performance cylinder head manufacturer (as well as Caterpillar and other household names) . Trust me....we walked very slowly and did our homework. The bottom line is the valves they produced for us were extremely reliable out in the field (how many threads do you see about problems with our valves breaking....bad news travels fast on the Internet).
Job number one of utmost importance in a valve supplier is to provide us with a quality valve that doesn't break and they did that admirably. All of our valves from that supplier were one piece 21-4N stainless....the same high quality material used in any of the aftermarket leading suppliers "race" valves (not their street series). The problem we had occasionally with this supplier was consistency and we also had a small batch come thru with soft tips a few years back. We stepped up to the plate and R&R'ed any customer's heads that experienced abnormal wear on the tips, and even went as far as providing gaskets and reimbursing them with a $600 check to cover their labor. This is the level of customer service AFR is known to provide.
Unfortunately we didn't get the phone call or an opportunity to make things right here or we certainly would have. Fact of the matter is we stopped using that supplier shortly after the valve tip incident which was back in November of 2007, and have switched to a vendor in Argentina who has been providing us with the same durability and a more consistent fit and finish. REV, Ferrea, and other big name valves are also sourced in Argentina.
We do not install cheap parts in our cylinder heads....period. How could we offer a lifetime warranty on our castings and two years on all parts if that were the case....check our website for more info there.
I offer the OP the same thing I would offer any of you with new AFR valves that you are unhappy about....send them to us and we will pay the freight and swap them with new valves from our current supplier at no cost to you.
Regarding flow numbers, I could easily point to numerous threads showing our product flowed more than we advertise and unfortunately there are many variables when flow testing (the largest being the fixtures and the type of bench used), but the bottom line is that is another area where we stand behind our product and offer the end user a guarantee (all flow figures to be within 2% of our advertised figures). If in fact there is an issue we will address it with the heads in question and/or replace the head(s) at our discretion.....then reimburse the customer his freight costs as well as pay for the return freight. If the heads flow within our 2% guidelines then the customer is only responsible for freight both ways.....we do not charge anything additional for the time invested to "handle" and qualify the product.
And guys....at the risk of stating the obvious, please contact us first and give us the opportunity to help.
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
R&D / Product Design Mgr.
661-705-8508
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
Tony, I'll tell you what, I'm getting a little sick of being a "Crash Test Dummie" for the aftermarket parts industry. I don't need valves from Argentina, I'll stick with my USA manufatured Manley "Severe Duty" valves I already paid good money for (MONEY that I worked many long hours to earn.)
I'll gladly send you back these valves for a refund of $120 of my hard earned $$$ but, I would guess they run about $3.50 each (by the shipping container load that you must buy) so I could never expect you to refund me that amount. Instead, I guess they can be used to protect LS series head valve seats when my head porter buddy is doing chamber work on LS series engine.
My AFR Eliminator heads were purchased after your LS series head recall, you guys did the right thing for the LS1 users and credited the end users with labor costs for pulling those heads (probably a smart move considering how many attorneys own late model Vettes.) Would you have refunded all my costs for a valve failure that would have DESTROYED other major part to my engine if I had used these valves?(I don't think so!)
Maybe my heads slipped through the cracks with a bad set of valves but, if they did I would like to know what steps you guys take BEFORE you ship product out to the end user to INSURE that our hard earned $$$ are well spent on your product. Why don't you post some photos of you current hardware for us to see.
If AFR was smart, they would offer a "premium parts upgrade" to Manley USA made parts for the serious end users out there. Maybe by keeping people employed in New Jersy, you could generate more sales of your products in the USA (how many heads have you sold in Argentina?)
I don't do much compromising when I decide to build a motor, I have been a "Gearhead" since I first started Drag Racing in 1975. I have been through the "school of hard knocks" and know better than to expect those valves to hold up to a 7500RPM solid roller application with the poor machining that was done on them. The heads have been around the machine shop for almost 2 years now and I couldn't have expected any coperation from AFR after that length of time. AFR made the decision to install these parts and ship them out, I'm just lucky that I'm the type of guy who inspects his parts before using them and caught this problem before it became a major catastrophy.
AFR's mistake was specifying the manufacturer put your company initials on these valves in the part number on the stem. You cannot accuse me of slander because I have a set of valves with YOUR part numbers out of YOUR heads that I paid about $2000 for with that are SUBSTANDARD parts.
I'll gladly send you back these valves for a refund of $120 of my hard earned $$$ but, I would guess they run about $3.50 each (by the shipping container load that you must buy) so I could never expect you to refund me that amount. Instead, I guess they can be used to protect LS series head valve seats when my head porter buddy is doing chamber work on LS series engine.
My AFR Eliminator heads were purchased after your LS series head recall, you guys did the right thing for the LS1 users and credited the end users with labor costs for pulling those heads (probably a smart move considering how many attorneys own late model Vettes.) Would you have refunded all my costs for a valve failure that would have DESTROYED other major part to my engine if I had used these valves?(I don't think so!)
Maybe my heads slipped through the cracks with a bad set of valves but, if they did I would like to know what steps you guys take BEFORE you ship product out to the end user to INSURE that our hard earned $$$ are well spent on your product. Why don't you post some photos of you current hardware for us to see.
If AFR was smart, they would offer a "premium parts upgrade" to Manley USA made parts for the serious end users out there. Maybe by keeping people employed in New Jersy, you could generate more sales of your products in the USA (how many heads have you sold in Argentina?)
I don't do much compromising when I decide to build a motor, I have been a "Gearhead" since I first started Drag Racing in 1975. I have been through the "school of hard knocks" and know better than to expect those valves to hold up to a 7500RPM solid roller application with the poor machining that was done on them. The heads have been around the machine shop for almost 2 years now and I couldn't have expected any coperation from AFR after that length of time. AFR made the decision to install these parts and ship them out, I'm just lucky that I'm the type of guy who inspects his parts before using them and caught this problem before it became a major catastrophy.
AFR's mistake was specifying the manufacturer put your company initials on these valves in the part number on the stem. You cannot accuse me of slander because I have a set of valves with YOUR part numbers out of YOUR heads that I paid about $2000 for with that are SUBSTANDARD parts.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
Just so everyone here can have a good understanding of where I am comming from, here is a picture of the part number on the valve stem, note the letters "AFR" and the manufacturer Karvalve (India!)
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,911
Likes: 2
From: gold coast queensland
first bad thing i have ever heard of afr on this site or anywhere for that matter. thats not a bad strike rate because until now it was 500 customers (give or take a few) praising afr and how good they are. every company, service,goods,parts is going to have a slip up at some time and these valves are unfortunate but its happened. bottom line is that afr has chosen to save $$$ with 3rd world manufacturing and you can get away with that on christmas decorations for your tree...not things like this.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,944
Likes: 20
From: The only Corvettes in Highett Victoria
Really????
Don't be shy - tell us what you really think of the valves supplied with the heads!
Regards from Down Under
aussiejohn
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,518
Likes: 7
From: Valencia CA
Guys,
While our first response to this situation was more from an "informative" position, both Rick (the owner) and myself realized that no where in the response included an apology for the customer's inconvenience. We dropped the ball there and I wont sugar coat it. And also, for the record, our hopes are that NO customer receive a valve that has some quality issues....cosmetic or otherwise. We truly care about the product we produce and take alot of pride in what we build and design here.
That said, Rick has also approved the $120 refund Solid LT had inquired about so if The OP takes the time to PM me, I will get that processed as soon as possible. Obviously we need your basic information to make that happen assuming your not already in our system.
Lastly you asked a good question regarding what steps we have taken to ensure future end users won't experiences a similar situation. Since November 2007, as part of our lean manufacturing in our QC department, we implemented a more thorough incoming inspection process of all vendors we use. We check every part number from all vendors we receive parts from. Of course its part number and vendor sensitive as to the percentage checked, but you find out quickly (before it enters the field) whether you have any issues worth investigating further. This procedure is commonly accepted in lean manufacturing and was implemented with the guidance of a consultant we hired to help us become a world class lean manufacturing organization which we really ramped up our efforts towards in 2007.
However, does this ensure we will never have any problem like this (or any other issue) ever again.....of course not. While we strive for 100% in our QC checks and balances, its not a realistic figure when your dealing with mass production of any highly technical mechanical item. We do however stand behind any problems that may arise and thats all any company in a similar position to ours could possibly do.
Also, please see the pic (as requested) of the current valve for our 195 Comp Heads. This is from our new supplier whom we have been using for over two years in most of our product line.
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
While our first response to this situation was more from an "informative" position, both Rick (the owner) and myself realized that no where in the response included an apology for the customer's inconvenience. We dropped the ball there and I wont sugar coat it. And also, for the record, our hopes are that NO customer receive a valve that has some quality issues....cosmetic or otherwise. We truly care about the product we produce and take alot of pride in what we build and design here.
That said, Rick has also approved the $120 refund Solid LT had inquired about so if The OP takes the time to PM me, I will get that processed as soon as possible. Obviously we need your basic information to make that happen assuming your not already in our system.
Lastly you asked a good question regarding what steps we have taken to ensure future end users won't experiences a similar situation. Since November 2007, as part of our lean manufacturing in our QC department, we implemented a more thorough incoming inspection process of all vendors we use. We check every part number from all vendors we receive parts from. Of course its part number and vendor sensitive as to the percentage checked, but you find out quickly (before it enters the field) whether you have any issues worth investigating further. This procedure is commonly accepted in lean manufacturing and was implemented with the guidance of a consultant we hired to help us become a world class lean manufacturing organization which we really ramped up our efforts towards in 2007.
However, does this ensure we will never have any problem like this (or any other issue) ever again.....of course not. While we strive for 100% in our QC checks and balances, its not a realistic figure when your dealing with mass production of any highly technical mechanical item. We do however stand behind any problems that may arise and thats all any company in a similar position to ours could possibly do.
Also, please see the pic (as requested) of the current valve for our 195 Comp Heads. This is from our new supplier whom we have been using for over two years in most of our product line.
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
Tony the offer is fair enough, I'll contact you for athorization of return of these unused parts. To be fair to AFR, I never did contact you as I just felt like it would have been of little use but, I'm obviously WRONG in my assumption of AFR's customer relations and company integrety especially after I put this information out in the public forums.
Sorry for slamming you on these boards I was venting off a little steam as I have recently been fighting a major gear manufacturer over a differential ring gear with a defective bolt pattern (which was confirmed after I paid $50 freight to return the gear set.) I was given a replacement gear set but never reimbursed for my return shipping or lost labor to reinstall and set-up a new ring/pinion set (about 10hours total time.)
As I previously stated, I'm happy with the AFR heads, your work on port design is EXCELLENT and I much prefer to buy CNC parts over sitting at a grinding bench for 40hours getting grit in my nostrils (through my resperator) and a possible visit to the Optomologist for foreign object removal (been there twice in my life for cast iron removal.)
I guess I'm far more critical than most people because I have been schooled by a engine builder who has forgotten more about motors than I will ever know and he is the ultimate prefectionist (he builds winning USAC Silver Crown/Midgets and posseses many national championship winning customers in SCCA competition.)
Thanks for the offer, your more than fair in your response.
Sorry for slamming you on these boards I was venting off a little steam as I have recently been fighting a major gear manufacturer over a differential ring gear with a defective bolt pattern (which was confirmed after I paid $50 freight to return the gear set.) I was given a replacement gear set but never reimbursed for my return shipping or lost labor to reinstall and set-up a new ring/pinion set (about 10hours total time.)
As I previously stated, I'm happy with the AFR heads, your work on port design is EXCELLENT and I much prefer to buy CNC parts over sitting at a grinding bench for 40hours getting grit in my nostrils (through my resperator) and a possible visit to the Optomologist for foreign object removal (been there twice in my life for cast iron removal.)
I guess I'm far more critical than most people because I have been schooled by a engine builder who has forgotten more about motors than I will ever know and he is the ultimate prefectionist (he builds winning USAC Silver Crown/Midgets and posseses many national championship winning customers in SCCA competition.)
Thanks for the offer, your more than fair in your response.
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Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,518
Likes: 7
From: Valencia CA
