Composite Spring Vendors: RE: height issues
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,343
Likes: 4
From: Anderson SC
Read about my 4-wheeler trw spring experiance.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...-too-high.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...-too-high.html
I think it's just another indication that the TRW/Muskegon rear spring really needs a re-design.
-W
Race Director
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 16,528
Likes: 53
From: Dayton, Ohio
I've been using composite rear springs on my 71 for over 15 years. I've used VB and TRW styles. Both have pros and cons.
VB springs are flatter and easier to set the rear height with. They offer a wider variety of rates and can make you a custon rate or custom length spring for wide tires. I found their ride a bit choppy and my mechanic broke one during a "test" drive.
TRW design springs have more arc and require long spring bolts to get the rear height right. These long bolts can rub the inside of wide tires. The TRW ride seems a bit softer and more controlled to me.
Both require heat protection and both can delaminate if physically damaged. Shock selection is important with composite springs since the rebound rate is different from steel springs. I've had good luck with KYB GR-2s and Bilstein HDs on my TRW.
BTW, I run a 315 lb rear with my 383 and it's just right with a 5/8 rear sway bar and 255/50/17 tires.
VB springs are flatter and easier to set the rear height with. They offer a wider variety of rates and can make you a custon rate or custom length spring for wide tires. I found their ride a bit choppy and my mechanic broke one during a "test" drive.
TRW design springs have more arc and require long spring bolts to get the rear height right. These long bolts can rub the inside of wide tires. The TRW ride seems a bit softer and more controlled to me.
Both require heat protection and both can delaminate if physically damaged. Shock selection is important with composite springs since the rebound rate is different from steel springs. I've had good luck with KYB GR-2s and Bilstein HDs on my TRW.
BTW, I run a 315 lb rear with my 383 and it's just right with a 5/8 rear sway bar and 255/50/17 tires.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,456
Likes: 102
From: Piedmont Va
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13,'19-'20
Read about my 4-wheeler trw spring experiance.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...-too-high.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...-too-high.html
Good history thanks for dredging this one up. Wish I had seen it before buying this hypercoil.
So I'm like sitting at ~30" with the nuts extended as far as I dare. However the R side is 1/4" higher than the L and and I cant get them to even out exactly. However I am not at all cool with the fact that I can never get it any lower..so I think 'm gonna send this one back and try something else...so between now and tuesday I have to decide whether to go VBP or back to steel. 
I just insalled Bilstein Sports with this Spring. If I go to 7leaf will the valving on the be ok for the F41 tyep spring? Thanks for all the input guy's. I think Clam hit it on the nose with the complain/return vs settle for bandaid ratio. Seems lots of folks went with 10" bolts but I refuse! The 8" is bordering on too low already. Sure is a shame I cant get 2" more!
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 445
Likes: 1
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,112
Likes: 28
From: Florida
Good history thanks for dredging this one up. Wish I had seen it before buying this hypercoil. So I'm like sitting at ~30" with the nuts extended as far as I dare. However the R side is 1/4" higher than the L and and I cant get them to even out exactly. However I am not at all cool with the fact that I can never get it any lower..so I think 'm gonna send this one back and try something else...so between now and tuesday I have to decide whether to go VBP or back to steel.
I just insalled Bilstein Sports with this Spring. If I go to 7leaf will the valving on the be ok for the F41 tyep spring? Thanks for all the input guy's. I think Clam hit it on the nose with the complain/return vs settle for bandaid ratio. Seems lots of folks went with 10" bolts but I refuse! The 8" is bordering on too low already. Sure is a shame I cant get 2" more!
So I'm like sitting at ~30" with the nuts extended as far as I dare. However the R side is 1/4" higher than the L and and I cant get them to even out exactly. However I am not at all cool with the fact that I can never get it any lower..so I think 'm gonna send this one back and try something else...so between now and tuesday I have to decide whether to go VBP or back to steel. I just insalled Bilstein Sports with this Spring. If I go to 7leaf will the valving on the be ok for the F41 tyep spring? Thanks for all the input guy's. I think Clam hit it on the nose with the complain/return vs settle for bandaid ratio. Seems lots of folks went with 10" bolts but I refuse! The 8" is bordering on too low already. Sure is a shame I cant get 2" more!
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,456
Likes: 102
From: Piedmont Va
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13,'19-'20
-peace
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,456
Likes: 102
From: Piedmont Va
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13,'19-'20
from my view the outcome of this thread in general is that no vendor has come in and truly addressed the issues or provided any insight as to why this situation is what it is....or explained there has been no review of the issue and subsequent modification of the products...seems to be use 10" bolts or so sorry...
For my personal dilemma, the car is in my garage with air in the brakes,,,,real life priorities are consuming my time at the moment so I reckon I'm stuck with this spring for the time being..although highly perturbed by the whole situation... at this point I'll deal with it when I have time and then try and sell this thing at a swap meet somewhere.
For my personal dilemma, the car is in my garage with air in the brakes,,,,real life priorities are consuming my time at the moment so I reckon I'm stuck with this spring for the time being..although highly perturbed by the whole situation... at this point I'll deal with it when I have time and then try and sell this thing at a swap meet somewhere.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 830
Likes: 1
Well, i think a lot of people have no problems with their ride height (myself included. I have a 550# coils front & 360# rear composit). And, as a business owner myself, I cannot blame some of the vendors/manufacturers for not wanting to "stand before" the self appointed quality judges some of you seem to want to play.
anywhoo... here is what my car looks like: I use it as a daily driver, autoX and track car for HPDE a few times a year.
Oh... Paul, some of us upgrade our engines and suspensions to the way the original engineer Zora Duntov intended them to be, As a matter of fact, when I put my stock oem 350 on the dyno, it reeled in a whopping 181HP at the wheel. I like to merge safely into freeway traffic. Seriously, 180hp at the wheel?!?!?! Hell, I may have been driving a postal delivery jeep.
now, it drives and accelerates the way Zora designed it, before the feds de-tuned it.
end of story.
with smaller diameter racing slicks:
OEM wheel tire size 255/60/15:
anywhoo... here is what my car looks like: I use it as a daily driver, autoX and track car for HPDE a few times a year.
Oh... Paul, some of us upgrade our engines and suspensions to the way the original engineer Zora Duntov intended them to be, As a matter of fact, when I put my stock oem 350 on the dyno, it reeled in a whopping 181HP at the wheel. I like to merge safely into freeway traffic. Seriously, 180hp at the wheel?!?!?! Hell, I may have been driving a postal delivery jeep.
now, it drives and accelerates the way Zora designed it, before the feds de-tuned it.
end of story.
with smaller diameter racing slicks:
OEM wheel tire size 255/60/15:
Last edited by OregonVette80; Jun 2, 2010 at 09:59 PM.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,456
Likes: 102
From: Piedmont Va
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13,'19-'20
Well, i think a lot of people have no problems with their ride height (myself included. I have a 550# coils front & 360# rear composit). And, as a business owner myself, I cannot blame some of the vendors/manufacturers for not wanting to "stand before" the self appointed quality judges some of you seem to want to play.
anywhoo... here is what my car looks like: I use it as a daily driver, autoX and track car for HPDE a few times a year.
Oh... Paul, some of us upgrade our engines and suspensions to the way the original engineer Zora Duntov intended them to be, As a matter of fact, when I put my stock oem 350 on the dyno, it reeled in a whopping 181HP at the wheel. I like to merge safely into freeway traffic. Seriously, 180hp at the wheel?!?!?! Hell, I may have been driving a postal delivery jeep.
now, it drives and accelerates the way Zora designed it, before the feds de-tuned it.
end of story.
anywhoo... here is what my car looks like: I use it as a daily driver, autoX and track car for HPDE a few times a year.
Oh... Paul, some of us upgrade our engines and suspensions to the way the original engineer Zora Duntov intended them to be, As a matter of fact, when I put my stock oem 350 on the dyno, it reeled in a whopping 181HP at the wheel. I like to merge safely into freeway traffic. Seriously, 180hp at the wheel?!?!?! Hell, I may have been driving a postal delivery jeep.
now, it drives and accelerates the way Zora designed it, before the feds de-tuned it.
end of story.
Wow yer really
!.."end of story!" For the record, how long are your rear bolts, and how far are the nuts backed out? How about some pics of that view for us? Can you also share your tire size and your actual measured ride height and add some real value to this thread?
Nobody said anything about "quality". This is a discussion about design intent and lack of adjustments when there is a clear and persistent issue.
Why dont you go look in the mirror and admire yerself for a while!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,343
Likes: 4
From: Anderson SC
"Well said" if you want to ignore "reality". Any idiot with a ruler can "judge" this game - try it and see.
It's pretty easy to (self) appoint a "quality judge" in this instance.
The factory height specs are published. All you need is a 7 year old with a yardstick to do a pass/fail test. It's childs play.
-W
It's pretty easy to (self) appoint a "quality judge" in this instance.
The factory height specs are published. All you need is a 7 year old with a yardstick to do a pass/fail test. It's childs play.
-W
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 830
Likes: 1
you two, wth are you trying to accomplish? please put on the original 7 or 9 leaf rear spring back on your car and just get over it.
the vendor did not force you to buy their products. I have had decent success with these aforementioned companies... why don't you call them, tell them how terribly unhappy you are & ask to return the merchandise.
thanks, now go to bed
the vendor did not force you to buy their products. I have had decent success with these aforementioned companies... why don't you call them, tell them how terribly unhappy you are & ask to return the merchandise.
thanks, now go to bed
Last edited by OregonVette80; Jun 3, 2010 at 01:14 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,343
Likes: 4
From: Anderson SC
The issue is that a 30 year old spring design -for a 50 year old rear end - is still having ride height issues at all.
How much time is "long enough"? How hard is "get it right" ??
-W
Last edited by Clams Canino; Jun 3, 2010 at 05:18 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 1
From: Europe, France
I haven't had any height issue with the VBP composite rear monospring, but many people had told be not to buy the TRW spring.
Thanks for that !
I first tried with stock AC Delco shocks, then went to Bilstein ( rear & front ). That helped handling a lot.
Thanks for that !
I first tried with stock AC Delco shocks, then went to Bilstein ( rear & front ). That helped handling a lot.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,456
Likes: 102
From: Piedmont Va
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13,'19-'20
you two, wth are you trying to accomplish? please put on the original 7 or 9 leaf rear spring back on your car and just get over it.
the vendor did not force you to buy their products. I have had decent success with these aforementioned companies... why don't you call them, tell them how terribly unhappy you are & ask to return the merchandise.
thanks, now go to bed
the vendor did not force you to buy their products. I have had decent success with these aforementioned companies... why don't you call them, tell them how terribly unhappy you are & ask to return the merchandise.
thanks, now go to bed
If nothing else maybe this thread will help others avoid the same mistake.
BTW, if you own a business and your comments here reflect how you treat your customers, you shouldn't be in business for long!
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,889
Likes: 23
From: Kansas
Yes Sir; Mr. Van Steel, Would you be kind enough to ask the Hyper-co engineering group to chime in on this discussion? I have an original GM Composite spring in my 82, I would buy one of their springs, just because they made the original, when it gets time to change. I too don't want a four wheel Truck look. Low and Mean, that's the Scene. Have a great day. Thank You Gene
f
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,343
Likes: 4
From: Anderson SC
We know the TRW/Muskegon springs "run a little high" even with the 8" bolt.
And I think we've heard that the VBP springs are much better so long as you use tyhe 8" bolt.
That leaves the Hyperco spring as the mystery - what do (more) people think of that one? Height wise I mean? As compared to the VBP spring?
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
As I related in a different thread, I had a Corvette shop (since gone out of business) rebuild the rear suspension, TAs, etc., on my '69. Contrary to my specific instructions the shop used a TRW spring. When I saw the car, I could fit my XL fist, thumb up, between the tire and wheel well, with room to spare. The shop said they would order longer bolts, but I said, put the VB&P spring in as I had instructed.
The VB&P spring with the 8" bolts gives the correct ride height. VB&P recommends their specially valved shocks to make up for the lack of inter-leaf friction in a metal spring, so the ride won't be bouncy. I am using very old Koni adjustable shocks and the ride is just fine.
IMHO the TRW spring has way too much arch, unlike the VB&P spring what is nearly flat, like the OEM multi-leaf spring - when installed and weight is on the spring.
Cheers,
Pete
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,343
Likes: 4
From: Anderson SC