New 160 thermostat. Running 180. 205 highway
06-22-2010, 07:19 AM
#21
Drifting
Member Since: Apr 2006
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dont agree with this..
Putting a 180 stat in place of the 160 will accomplish just one thing: your engine will take less time to warm up to 180, and then up to 205 on the highway.
,it will also allow you to run at 180 instead of 160 if you have a capable cooling system to achieve 160 . in my car if i put in a 180 stat my temp gauge sits at 180. if i put in a 160 stat my temp gauge will sit at 160 .
It baffles me how much misunderstanding there is of a simple thermostat. The thermostat is there to help the engine warm up faster...NO OTHER REASON THAN THAT.
thats also a load of bull****,if a thermostat was there only to warm up an engine faster then there would be only one type. different engines need different running temperatures hence the variety in so many thermostat ratings so different engine requiremenets can be achieved.
The stat does NOT set the system temperature; that is accomplished by the combined effects of the components of the system, the outside air temperature, and [probably] a 100 other minor variables that few people know and fewer, yet, understand.
dam right a stat sets your temperture. if your cooling system has the potential to run cool then your engine will run at the thermostat rating of your choice . 160, 180,200 . like i said before if i put in a 160 stat it runs at that temp. if i put in a 200 stat it will sit on 200...if thats not setting my temp i dont know what is.
The engine and the water pump make heat...because they do "work". The radiator, the engine block, the exhaust system, and the oil pan lose heat...because they are all warmer than the ambient air around them. If the "heat system" makes more heat than the "cooling system" can lose, the temperature goes UP. Once that combined system stabilizes, you know what the operating temperature of that "total system" will be [at the existing ambient conditions]. If that system is too hot for you, then improve the 'heat loss' side of the system; if it is too cool for you, add heat...or, better yet, block the action of the cooling system. Hey, you could even install a higher temperature thermostat!!
,it will also allow you to run at 180 instead of 160 if you have a capable cooling system to achieve 160 . in my car if i put in a 180 stat my temp gauge sits at 180. if i put in a 160 stat my temp gauge will sit at 160 .
It baffles me how much misunderstanding there is of a simple thermostat. The thermostat is there to help the engine warm up faster...NO OTHER REASON THAN THAT.
thats also a load of bull****,if a thermostat was there only to warm up an engine faster then there would be only one type. different engines need different running temperatures hence the variety in so many thermostat ratings so different engine requiremenets can be achieved.
The stat does NOT set the system temperature; that is accomplished by the combined effects of the components of the system, the outside air temperature, and [probably] a 100 other minor variables that few people know and fewer, yet, understand.
dam right a stat sets your temperture. if your cooling system has the potential to run cool then your engine will run at the thermostat rating of your choice . 160, 180,200 . like i said before if i put in a 160 stat it runs at that temp. if i put in a 200 stat it will sit on 200...if thats not setting my temp i dont know what is.
The engine and the water pump make heat...because they do "work". The radiator, the engine block, the exhaust system, and the oil pan lose heat...because they are all warmer than the ambient air around them. If the "heat system" makes more heat than the "cooling system" can lose, the temperature goes UP. Once that combined system stabilizes, you know what the operating temperature of that "total system" will be [at the existing ambient conditions]. If that system is too hot for you, then improve the 'heat loss' side of the system; if it is too cool for you, add heat...or, better yet, block the action of the cooling system. Hey, you could even install a higher temperature thermostat!!
Last edited by gingerbreadman1977; 06-22-2010 at 07:28 AM.
06-22-2010, 11:59 AM
#23
Melting Slicks
Good post Gingerbread,..finally some sanity.
To add,..
Yes, a high-flow water pump WILL significantly improve cooling over a factory WP.
From here:
http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tec...ech_Tips_1.htm
...is this:
Tech Tip #1 - Water Pumps & Pulleys
"In order to increase your cooling system's performance you must maximize both the WATER flow and AIR flow."
Water Pumps
There are significant differences between a stock or OEM water pump, and Stewart Components water pumps. Most stock or OEM pumps are built to meet standard performance requirements at relatively low RPM. Stewart pumps are designed and manufactured specifically for high performance applications.
Every pump is designed to exacting tolerances for reliable, long-term performance that meets the requirements for your application.
And YES, a high performance engine ALONE will require additional cooling requirements. Why? Higher RPMs means more friction; more combustion events. (Higher RPMs usually due to lower rear gears). And higher compression ratios significantly raise combustion temps.
Lastly, I agree with whomever above said he can't understand how something so simple (a thermostat) can be so misunderstood.
To add,..
Yes, a high-flow water pump WILL significantly improve cooling over a factory WP.
From here:
http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tec...ech_Tips_1.htm
...is this:
Tech Tip #1 - Water Pumps & Pulleys
"In order to increase your cooling system's performance you must maximize both the WATER flow and AIR flow."
Water Pumps
There are significant differences between a stock or OEM water pump, and Stewart Components water pumps. Most stock or OEM pumps are built to meet standard performance requirements at relatively low RPM. Stewart pumps are designed and manufactured specifically for high performance applications.
Every pump is designed to exacting tolerances for reliable, long-term performance that meets the requirements for your application.
And YES, a high performance engine ALONE will require additional cooling requirements. Why? Higher RPMs means more friction; more combustion events. (Higher RPMs usually due to lower rear gears). And higher compression ratios significantly raise combustion temps.
Lastly, I agree with whomever above said he can't understand how something so simple (a thermostat) can be so misunderstood.
Last edited by 73, Dark Blue 454; 06-22-2010 at 12:01 PM.
06-22-2010, 01:57 PM
#25
Drifting
I found this article that I think is quite educational to those that don't get it....
http://willcoxcorvette.com/instructi...ng_article.pdf
http://willcoxcorvette.com/instructi...ng_article.pdf
06-22-2010, 05:51 PM
#26
Team Owner
gingerbread...
You have every right to disagree with anything written in this Forum. That does not make your position correct, however. Believe what you want...physics really doesn't care what anyone thinks.
You have every right to disagree with anything written in this Forum. That does not make your position correct, however. Believe what you want...physics really doesn't care what anyone thinks.
06-23-2010, 01:54 AM
#29
Race Director
Everyone's right.
lol
Truth: If I put a 200* thermostat in my car, it's unlikely the temperatures will be less than 200* post warm-up.
If I put a 160* thermostat in my car, it depends on how efficient my cooling system is to get there.
7T1Vette's point regarding water pumps:
If I have a 30 year old radiator, low-capacity, in poor condition, and jam a high performance water pump on there, I will be pushing water fast but not cooling it very much.
But if I have a high capacity racing radiator, a high flow water pump will help quite a bit in cooling.
(Hence the air flow and water flow part from the cooling document!)
One thing that NEEDS TO BE SAID: There is NO good reason to run a 160* thermostat. Yes, your engine makes more power there, but you will not be properly removing contaminants from your crank case if your car is really running that cool. Aim for 195 unless you're at the drag strip... then bring your ice packs and run em hard.
lol
Truth: If I put a 200* thermostat in my car, it's unlikely the temperatures will be less than 200* post warm-up.
If I put a 160* thermostat in my car, it depends on how efficient my cooling system is to get there.
7T1Vette's point regarding water pumps:
If I have a 30 year old radiator, low-capacity, in poor condition, and jam a high performance water pump on there, I will be pushing water fast but not cooling it very much.
But if I have a high capacity racing radiator, a high flow water pump will help quite a bit in cooling.
(Hence the air flow and water flow part from the cooling document!)
One thing that NEEDS TO BE SAID: There is NO good reason to run a 160* thermostat. Yes, your engine makes more power there, but you will not be properly removing contaminants from your crank case if your car is really running that cool. Aim for 195 unless you're at the drag strip... then bring your ice packs and run em hard.
06-23-2010, 02:03 AM
#30
Le Mans Master
Additionally, it gives you more "cushion" before you overheat if you get stuck somewhere (e.g., in traffic, in line at a car show, in a parade, etc.) if you start at a lower temperature.
06-23-2010, 02:51 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Aug 2005
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I found this article that I think is quite educational to those that don't get it....
http://willcoxcorvette.com/instructi...ng_article.pdf
http://willcoxcorvette.com/instructi...ng_article.pdf
Thanks !
06-23-2010, 11:31 AM
#32
Melting Slicks
But if you run a 160 degree stat on the street, you'll suffer an accelerated rate of engine wear; approximately twice the rate of an engine that runs at 180f.
With coolant temps of 160f, your oil's temp will never reach the needed temp (212f~ degreees) to boil off (vaporize) combustion by-product which includes water, acids, unspent fuel, etc, etc. This junk fouls the oil and causes engine wear and sludge. This combustion by-product is present in the crankcase as a result of blow-by which all engines have.
Your oil temp will typically run 25-35 degrees higher than your coolant temp.
The PCV system removes vaporized water, which obvioulsy, makes for a poor lubricant (the water) when mixed with your oil.
More here:
http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html
PS,..why am I the only one presenting supporting docs?
Last edited by 73, Dark Blue 454; 06-23-2010 at 02:38 PM.
06-23-2010, 12:25 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
The point was, that if you're racing and you change your oil every 4th race, run a 160 degree thermostat or no thermostat at all. A cooler engine means cooler intake charge which means a slight bit more HP.
But if you run a 160 degree stat on the street, you'll suffer an accelerated rate of engine wear; approximately twice the rate of an engine that runs at 180f.
With coolant temps of 160f, your oil's temp will never reach the needed temp (212f~ degreees) to boil off (vaporize) combustion by-product which includes water, acids, unspent fuel, etc, etc. This junk fouls the oil and causes engine wear and sludge. This combustion by-product is present in the crankcase as a result of blow-by which all engines have.
Your oil temp will typically run 25-35 degrees higher than your coolant temp.
The PCV system removes removes vaporized water, which obvioulsy, makes for a poor lubricant (the water) when mixed with your oil.
More here:
http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html
PS,..why am I the only one presenting supporting docs?
But if you run a 160 degree stat on the street, you'll suffer an accelerated rate of engine wear; approximately twice the rate of an engine that runs at 180f.
With coolant temps of 160f, your oil's temp will never reach the needed temp (212f~ degreees) to boil off (vaporize) combustion by-product which includes water, acids, unspent fuel, etc, etc. This junk fouls the oil and causes engine wear and sludge. This combustion by-product is present in the crankcase as a result of blow-by which all engines have.
Your oil temp will typically run 25-35 degrees higher than your coolant temp.
The PCV system removes removes vaporized water, which obvioulsy, makes for a poor lubricant (the water) when mixed with your oil.
More here:
http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html
PS,..why am I the only one presenting supporting docs?
You are missing out on a whole lot of cars (probably most of us) that have their oil changed every few hundred miles. For us, yes, I would rather let the engine run cooler, make more power, and give me more heat "cushion" than worry about contamination.
My car is driven maybe a couple hundred miles a year. I change the oil based on time (every couple years) rather than mileage. Word is that oil is not supposed to sit in your crankcase for years on end even if the car is not driven.
I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts that at a 300 miles oil change, the oil that comes out of my car with a 160 degree thermostat is far cleaner, with less contaminants, than oil that has been subject to 3,000 miles over 3 months with a 180 degree thermostat.
Last edited by toddalin; 06-23-2010 at 12:27 PM.
06-23-2010, 02:28 PM
#34
Race Director
People enter these threads with opinions and will only listen to the ones that validate their own. Why would they dare cite an expert that proves their opinion wrong?
I am just like toddalin, I run my 78 a few hundred miles a year, except I do it with a 195* thermostat.
I'd be willing to bet, dollars to donuts, that the oil that comes out of my car is far cleaner than the oil that comes out of his.
Bottom line:
I'm not willing to trade my engine block, bearings, crank, rods, etc for an extra 5-10 hp.
I am just like toddalin, I run my 78 a few hundred miles a year, except I do it with a 195* thermostat.
I'd be willing to bet, dollars to donuts, that the oil that comes out of my car is far cleaner than the oil that comes out of his.
Bottom line:
I'm not willing to trade my engine block, bearings, crank, rods, etc for an extra 5-10 hp.
06-23-2010, 05:13 PM
#35
The problem I currently have is that by the time my thermostat opens, it will climb to 210 before it starts dropping back down again.. I am currently running a weiand high flow aluminum pump, high flow thermostat, new Dewitts aluminum radiator and high flow electric fan that stays on all the time.. I was thinking this might be a good application for a lower rated thermostat?
06-23-2010, 05:38 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Sep 2008
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seriously though, if you've verified those temps with an IR themometer, you are fine, IMHO...i spent a lot of time and money getting mine to run at those temps! i'm glad i replaced the radiator, hoses and fan clutch, it helped a lot, but the most important thing for me was ignition timing.
06-23-2010, 05:41 PM
#37
Race Director
The problem I currently have is that by the time my thermostat opens, it will climb to 210 before it starts dropping back down again.. I am currently running a weiand high flow aluminum pump, high flow thermostat, new Dewitts aluminum radiator and high flow electric fan that stays on all the time.. I was thinking this might be a good application for a lower rated thermostat?
06-23-2010, 06:28 PM
#39
Race Director
I started doing it probably 20 years ago , it helps with air and I think because it keeps a little trickle going through it makes the thermostat more responsive,probably opens a tad sooner but haven't noticed that to be a problem on vettes.
06-23-2010, 06:37 PM
#40