Odometer fraud-what would you do?
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,640
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From: Ann Arbor Michigan
Odometer fraud-what would you do?
Here's my story. Last fall I bought a 71' from a dealer in Ohio. It came with no documentation or history other than the title from the previous owner certifying the mileage as 20k. The car was mostly original, since I wanted a restoration project. As I got into the restoration, it became clear that this car had WAY more than 20K (maybe 120K!). The dealer says there's nothing he can do since the previous owner certified the mileage (I agree). I have written and emailed the previous owner saying nothing about the mileage, but just trying to get some history of the car etc. To date, he has not responded. What would you do? I probably would have bought the car anyway (for less$$), but it just pisses me off that the guy lied.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 347
Likes: 31
From: Downriver Area, Michigan
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Duke94)
You might want to contact the Ohio DMV. I understand they are pretty tough on those kind of things. I had a friend who traded in their truck to a dealer. The truck had very low miles for the year it was. It ended up in Ohio and the Ohio DMV contacted him to verify the miles.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,078
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From: DFW TX
Cruise-In VII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '07
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Duke94)
I warn guys buying vettes all the time to always consider that the low mileage vette they are looking at is usually a high mileage vette. 100,000 is not that much wear on a car. It the 30 years that tears them up. It he was the only owner then it should be easy to prove with old oil changes or dealer maintaince. Run a carfax on it.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,365
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From: Lake Villa IL
Cruise-In IV Veteran
Cruise-In V Veteran
St. Jude Contributor
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Duke94)
If I find a car that old, with that little mileage, I'm all over the car--with a microscope. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc. it's a duck. I know it sucks, but caveat emptor. My car is a '77 with only 18k. Right? 18K. Hell no. Put 100 in front of it. If there is a way you can get screwed when buying something with wheels, it's going to happen. I don't care who you are. And your recourse is nothing. That's why it's called getting screwed. Sorry I'm ranting, but car dealers are horses by nature, and there's nothing you can do to change it. Remember the story about the frog and the scorpion?
As far as the previous owner, prove he rolled it back. Right? You can't. The owner, if you were to pursue this, would point behind him, and say it happened before he ever laid eyes on the car. The burden of proof is on you, and it's a battle you really don't want to pursue. It's not worth your time or effort or $$. And one more thing, if you took the car over state lines, that is, if you and the all the parties don't live in Ohio, the situation becomes even more complicated and beyond help.
Just enjoy the car, live and learn.
:U
As far as the previous owner, prove he rolled it back. Right? You can't. The owner, if you were to pursue this, would point behind him, and say it happened before he ever laid eyes on the car. The burden of proof is on you, and it's a battle you really don't want to pursue. It's not worth your time or effort or $$. And one more thing, if you took the car over state lines, that is, if you and the all the parties don't live in Ohio, the situation becomes even more complicated and beyond help.
Just enjoy the car, live and learn.
:U
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 65,492
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From: Orange Park Florida
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Duke94)
Even brand new odo's are so easy to fake that I just figger on a minimum of 10k miles/year on the car....that's the true mileage....
and pay accordingly....now if it's in a large state, like Texas, California or Florida with a lot of hi mileage cars in it...double that figger to 20k/year...
GENE
and pay accordingly....now if it's in a large state, like Texas, California or Florida with a lot of hi mileage cars in it...double that figger to 20k/year...
GENE
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 26,545
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From: Huntersville NC
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Duke94)
Last fall I bought a 71' from a dealer in Ohio.
It came with no documentation or history other than the title from the previous owner certifying the mileage as 20k.
My car was sold to me with 68k "original" miles. I took that to mean, and I still refer to the odometer, as "indicated" miles.
Contacting Ohio DMV may be a good idea. Anything that would be easy and cheap for you. I would not spend a lot of time, energy or money on this. You will need all of that for restoring your vette. Chalk it up to experience. It is too bad that you paid a premium for a very low mileage car that wasnt.
MJ
Racer
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 251
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From: Lake Hughes CA
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (mrvette)
now if it's in a large state, like Texas, California or Florida with a lot of hi mileage cars in it...double that figger to 20k/year...
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 787
Likes: 1
From: Toronto Ontario
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (gerry c)
If any-one believes the milage on any used car also belives in Santa Claus. I don't even look at or ask what the miliage is on an old Vette, why bother make sure the over-all condion is what you are comfortable with. Nothing beats a test drive, If I can't test drive I walk.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 7,739
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From: Unreconstructed, South Carolina
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Budman78)
I warn guys buying vettes all the time to always consider that the low mileage vette they are looking at is usually a high mileage vette. 100,000 is not that much wear on a car. It the 30 years that tears them up. It he was the only owner then it should be easy to prove with old oil changes or dealer maintaince. Run a carfax on it.
Jack
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,071
Likes: 79
From: central FL, near the beach.
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (73-454)
i agree with 73-454
My friend has a low mileage 62 that he got in 65. Everywhere he goes(a few rides a year) people ask if he restored it. Rather than explain that it is in new condition and never was restored, he just nods. A true low mileage, well taken care of car does NOT need restoration.
I once thought time was as bad as mileage, but time in a garage is like being put in a time machine. My 72 looks as good as the day i got it, 12 years and 6000 miles ago. If i put 120,000 on it it would need a full restoration.
My friend has a low mileage 62 that he got in 65. Everywhere he goes(a few rides a year) people ask if he restored it. Rather than explain that it is in new condition and never was restored, he just nods. A true low mileage, well taken care of car does NOT need restoration.
I once thought time was as bad as mileage, but time in a garage is like being put in a time machine. My 72 looks as good as the day i got it, 12 years and 6000 miles ago. If i put 120,000 on it it would need a full restoration.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,758
Likes: 3
From: Surrey
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (gerry c)
Having changed out my speedo out, I'd never trust the inicated mileage as it is so easy to change it. I usually check out wear on steering wheels, brake pedals, etc. (although these can easily be changed). DON'T go by the condition of the sellers daily driver - some of us have some real old "oil burners" (Beaters) which are totally negleted while we lavish our time & money on our "Classics" :)
The bottom line is that if you're happy with the condition of the car, then why worry - at the age of these things the odometer reading is only really useful for reminding you of when the next oil change, etc is due.
:cheers:
The bottom line is that if you're happy with the condition of the car, then why worry - at the age of these things the odometer reading is only really useful for reminding you of when the next oil change, etc is due.
:cheers:
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 136
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From: Brooks GA
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (UKPaul)
Carfax doesn't check back any farther than 81, Your wasting your time getting the state involved with odometer fraud. There's no way you will ever prove it. Maybe you payed too much but I doesn't matter now.
You bought the car to enjoy let the past go and get down to enjoying your new toy.
You bought the car to enjoy let the past go and get down to enjoying your new toy.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,411
Likes: 1
From: Wylie TX
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Shark79)
This may be different in other states besides Texas, but isn't what is put on the title the "odometer reading"? I traded in an Explorer with 155K miles on it which showed 55K on the odometer. We had to fill out an "odometer reading" statement putting in 55K. Nowhere on that form did it have a place to put "actual miles". The dealer we traded it in to told us that we needed to put the odo reading. We did, however, create another document stating that there were 155K actual miles and made the dealer sign it.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 11,361
Likes: 383
From: Plano TX
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Chris A)
Well, in texas (and I would think most other states as well), older cars are exempt from the odometer part on the registration. My '71 Title lists "exempt" on the odometer part, as does my '83 Cadillac.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,143
Likes: 0
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Duke94)
Yeah, BUDMAN's right !!! :D
I had a 1968 Camaro -all original- with a 109k miles and it looked 'fairly' new.
Interior was almost perfect & it rode very, very smooth.
My '68 vette show 28k on the odometer (exempt in TX) but I like to think of it as 128k ....although it might actually be 228k ! :seeya
I had a 1968 Camaro -all original- with a 109k miles and it looked 'fairly' new.
Interior was almost perfect & it rode very, very smooth.
My '68 vette show 28k on the odometer (exempt in TX) but I like to think of it as 128k ....although it might actually be 228k ! :seeya
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
From: SouthWest MI
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (verskel)
When I bought mine, the title indicated 19K miles with no rollover (at least up here there is a box on the title that should be checked if mechanical rollover has happened). Now I personally don't believe that my car only has 19K miles, but I knew that when I bought it, so it really wasn't an issue.
I agree with others, that if it is _truly_ a low miles car, you'll be able to tell. Certain tell-tale signs of wear just won't be there. Seats and carpet are a very good place to look (mine look like poopie), so is the shift console plate and steering wheel.
Cheers,
Tony
I agree with others, that if it is _truly_ a low miles car, you'll be able to tell. Certain tell-tale signs of wear just won't be there. Seats and carpet are a very good place to look (mine look like poopie), so is the shift console plate and steering wheel.
Cheers,
Tony
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,640
Likes: 287
From: Ann Arbor Michigan
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Duke94)
Thanks for all the input. I needed to vent. I intend to enjoy this car and get on with it. What bugs me though is that part of the fun of restoring an old car is tracking it's history. Unfortunatly the previous owner won't respond because he has something to hide. Oh well, life goes on.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,160
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From: Ajax Ontario
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (Duke94)
I have a friend with a '64 coupe....showing about 19,000 miles on the clock. He bought the car around 1980....and with the exact same odometer reading. Very common, even without fraud, for someone to simply not fix a broken speedo until time for sale. My car shows 40,000 miles. Speedo works but car is on second engine so what would the miles really be? 140k? possible....240k also possible....110k also possible. Who knows.....
I love the cars for sale that claim low original miles, but then add that the engine has been "recently rebuilt". WTF???
I love the cars for sale that claim low original miles, but then add that the engine has been "recently rebuilt". WTF???
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,456
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From: Coming home from Luckenbach Texas
Re: Odometer fraud-what would you do? (68shark)
The car I bought (from a dealer) has "56K" miles. Fortunately, I was able to test it back-to-back with another '79 that had about 130K miles. The difference was very discernable: looser front end, rougher interior, and an engine that had been detailed with a can of spray paint! :crazy:
I'm not really sure how many miles my car actually has, but it was obviously cared for -- a goodly amount of chrome under the hood, a reprint of the owner's manual, stuff like that. As far as I'm concerned, integrity of the vehicle and overall condition are more important than whatever nonsense the odometer is showing! :cheers:
I'm not really sure how many miles my car actually has, but it was obviously cared for -- a goodly amount of chrome under the hood, a reprint of the owner's manual, stuff like that. As far as I'm concerned, integrity of the vehicle and overall condition are more important than whatever nonsense the odometer is showing! :cheers: