Good post Indiancreek. I have to agree with you for the full 100%.
But all it takes is picking up the phone, and yes you can actually still call people with a smart phone, and ask.
Now they can still lie to you, but hey, you have to start believing somewhere.

Absolutely but can we all afford to build a Nascar engine?
If I had the funds I'd be working on a motor for my Aston-Martin, not a 383 for my '79 C3.
If I had the funds I would make a Salt flat racer out of a 70-ies Cadillac.

At some point you have to plan and stick with what you can afford to spend. If you can't afford a Callies crank and carillo rods you'd have to either sit by the sideline or get something else.
Entire generations have gotten power using the cheapest catalog rebuild kits.
If your budget is $4000 for an engine I don't believe you can go wrong with one of these engines.
IMHO it's crazy to build a $15,000 engine for a 350 HP Sunday driver unless you really don't know what to do with your money.
A $1000 crank doesn't make it go any faster.
In the Sept 2010 edition of Chevy Performance magazine they did a top end swap with a Brodix kit. A gain of 111HP, from 365 to 476.
The cost? $5,647 that is $50.87/HP gained.
Absolutely outrageous. You can build two engines for that kind of money. Your local machine shop can probably build you a 600HP motor from scratch for that money. So what's the use?
There is no reason to spend $7000 if you can't tell the difference from spending $3500.

 

I agree.
There is a balance you need to make with regard to budget and parts cost. Everybody would like some nascar builder to build their engine with the best parts money can buy.
Keeping in mind that the best part in the world is only as strong as the weakest part, as they function with each other.
Most folks will never know what the HP is of their engine might be, as they will never see a dyno. Most of the time it's speculation.
Personally I don't use eagle, scat or pro comp for my stuff, but for a customer, if it fits their budget, I will. Keeping in mind the machining cost me nothing for my own stuff. If a customer wants eagle or scat crank or rods, like I said before, I'll turn the crank and recon the rods to be sure they are were they should be. I've never been compelled to do that with Oliver Callis, Crower, Lunati or any other of a number of tier 1 companies.
Correct though, budget dictates everything. If time permits, and the engine isn't needed to get a daily driver going. Patients may result in stronger parts. The way the world turns, the owner, if it lets go, will blame weakest part and or builder. The builder will blame the owner. Been that way for ever. Most likely won't change.
I guess it's really a gamble with the odds leaning one direction or the other, bassed on the builder and parts variable.
I personally would think I'd like to meet and talk with the person building my engine so I can form my own opinion.

 

Items I would be looking for when buying a 383 crate engine that do not apply to this engine in order of importance to me.
1. Internally balanced
2. Quality heads
3. Roller cam
4. 4 bolt mains
5. Someone's name on the rods to be able to research them.
6. (optional but important to me) Forged, quality rotating assembly.

Looks to me like the internals and components of this build were chosen with the #1 priority being low price. Claimer motor type build.

 

All good suggestions from 63 mako.
Number 6 is more important than the rest. The strength and durability begins at the bottom performance from cam up. A poor head (unless it cracks) will hurt you HP and torque numbers.
Issues in the bottom end take your engine apart for you without tools.
Caps are nice splayed, but then more money with align hone. There is a bunch of opinion with regard to straight bolt 4 bolt caps or two bolt caps. Main studs are great, but if you are going to have to align hone anyway, may as well add splayed four bolt caps.
Balanced is a must.

 

As far as crosshatch in those pictured cylinder walls, the photos he (Skip White) provides in his ad are most likely GMPP ad copy photos of a block with unfinished bores as there are raw, horizontal machining marks shown in those holes rather than finish honing marks. And if you ask him for actual photos of a block that HE finished that wouldn't help much either because it's almost certainly NOT a pic of the motor that you'll be getting. There are lots of people out there that have bought ebay crate motors with good results as well as lots of people that had bad results. Personally, the first rebuilt motor that I ever installed in one of my cars was a smallblock Chevy that came from a rebuilder, and from startup it used ridiculous amounts of oil. Never could find the cause, took the builder to small claims and he obviously had more experience than I did because the judge practically laughed me out of the courtroom. The two biggest question marks that I saw in his ad were his contentions that you'll never have heating issues with that block bored at the (typical) +.030" when he states in the same ad that in order to make a 383 it has to be bored to +.125" which will reduce wall thicknesses by an additional .047"...hmmm. Also, he's using a CAST crank. Don't know about Chevys but I have personally broken cast Ford cranks when pushing in excess of 400hp. He's using a lot of Chinese parts in that build and I KNOW that there are inexpensive Chinese forged alternatives out there that I would think preferable to ANY cast unit (I'm currently using a Chinese 5140 forging in my Ford 331 that I measured thoroughly upon reciept and found to be blueprint within .0001"-much as we all hate using this stuff it's hard to beat when the price is that low and they're that well made). Bottom line, there's always gonna be some risk involved when buying crate motors from ebay vendors because you're dealing with heavy items being shipped across the country; making warranty claims then becomes even more difficult than it would otherwise be. There is a local ex-drag racer machinist here in my hometown that builds tons of 383's and if I had him build me one he's just down the street if any problems did arise...dealing with locals always seems preferable to me rather than fighting with some internet dude who could very easily pull up stakes and disappear...my $1.380

 

The issues I've had with the chinese cranks don't seem to be in journal size. It seems to be in true to line of crank. Normally this is an issue of dressing of the grinder stone. A non true dressing of the stone will transfer the angle to the crank itself. It's easy to over look this as the size remains exact, but a thousand or two off line. A .010 trues them up fine. As a matter of fact, they were offering something called the 10x10 crank that was already turned .010x .010 to correct the issue.
One thing I do from time to time here, more with first time engine guys, is I have a work bench set up and I let them work on their own engines. Stuff like grinding casting flash or smoothing or polishing less important areas. Man, they go at it to. I'll felt marker what I want done and they get with it. Then if they want to watch while the block is bored or hone, or the rods reconed, they are welcome to with their engine.
Usually I have no issues from them either.
I have to do a bunch of explaining, but it's worth it to me. Then I get better questions than I do from the average customer.
I let them use the bore gage and see how their block was finished. I've been doing this for a while now, and it turned into a deal where I don't take much off the street business, word of mouth is keeping me busier than I want to be.

 

I forgot. yep that looked like a block freash off the boring bar. with an undersized piston in it. The lines are horizontal without a cross.

 

While we are on 383s, let me ask you a question. Do you all think there would be a market for a guide to help in relieving the pan rail for a stroker.
I'm doing one now for a guy who runs a sign co. While talking with him about his motor I explained to him the number of folks builing their own 383. That I was thinking of making a guide that would align with the pan holes and was notched for relief.
He says he can print them in vinyl that would stick to the pan rail to be a pattern for the process. Maybe $5.00 on the internet or ebay or something. They could ship for the cost of a stamp.

 

A little clarification from my viewpoint. Internally balanced is a much better build than externally balanced, less harmonic vibration, smoother running = increased longevity. Weight matching each piston, rod (big end, small end) and assembly as close as possible before balancing helps tremedously. The better quality rods and pistons are already close, Cheaper seems to vary in weight more. Cheaper builds often cut corners here. A forged crank is a 3 or 400 dollar upgrade and well worth it in my opinion. ARP studs throughout is money well spent. Quality heads are a must. Again uniform flow characteristics at each cylinder and identical chamber volumn means a smoother running engine increasing power and longevity. Cheap castings with poor quality control will not give you this. Same with the intake. Same with the block deck, Needs to be square decked with the same distance from the piston top to the deck throughout for uniform compression at each cylinder = smoother running engine and increased longevity. New GM blocks are not true side to side and front to back. No way I build an engine today with a flat tappet cam period.
All these "extra" steps come at a cost. If you shop carefully, do your research and find a good local machine shop I think you are way ahead of the crate engine guys on Ebay but you will spend more money and end up with a higher quality end result in most cases.

 

Please add some linkes, for the parts you think would be a good for a 383 project.

Thanks.

 

I am not a procomp fan after doing all the research on the procomp block years ago only to find out its a POS and the material make up was junk as well and I can only guess waht kind of crap they melted down to build the procomp heads with.

We don't allow those heads on our engines as we have seen that they are not a Dart, Brodix or AFR but you are getting exactly what your paying for!!!

Most of our builds we do are brand new Dart blocks and I can't imagine putting a head like that on a good block..

Here is the link on the Procomp block

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...er=asc&start=0

Here is the final probing and material make up of the chinese block

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...er=asc&start=0

You can see the quality of the block and I wonder what how much quality is in their heads!!

 

I would love to have one, it would be worth 5 bucks to me, as i am getting ready to have to do some 1st time block notching........

 

I always cringe whenever I hear ebay and crate motor in the same post. I will try once again to explain why you don't do that. There used to be a guy ( still here but rarely comes to the C3 section anymore ) that praised a certain ebay crate engine company every chance he got.

The story might not be perfect because I can't remember what I had for breakfast but the 383ci he bought never ran right, from the beginning. I believe he sent it back and they overhauled it or gave him another one.

Now the new one was using a quart of oil every 100 miles or so and didn't run that well either. He tore it down himself this time and asked on this forum " What CLAIMER " meant when he looked at the pistons. Needless to say after 2-3 years of telling everyone how great this crate engine shop was he finally did the right thing and got a motor built locally.

One member who got caught up in his BS bought from a complete motor from this company and said he walked out into his garage in the morning and the harmonic balancer had fallen off and was laying on the floor, I don't make this stuff up

The proper way to go about getting the motor you want for your budget is to go to the dragstrip and car shows and ask who the best engine builder in your area is. If one particular company comes up over and over you go there and talk with the owner about what you want and how much you want to spend.

You then get the owner to write you out parts list quote listing every part and labor involved. Then you decide if you want to change something or you tell him to go ahead and build it for you. Some good shops will even warranty a street / strip motor because they are good enough that they can tear it down and see where it failed and who's responsibility it is.

Buying a motor from some company on ebay is not something I would not recommend, even if warrantied they will blame it on you and you pay freight both ways.

 

MH, can't argue with much you said.
However, these guys are not just an ebay store, they actually "exist" in real life also:


http://www.whiteperformance.com/
That's exactly what they do.

 

It's easy to see they aren't just fooling around. I know what that equipment costs. Just at a glance from what I see there is over $50,000. And I know by what they say they can do that there is stuff I can't see in the pics.
Looks like good equipmnet and most likely do good work. The issue is budget and a confidence ballance.
Now less expensive parts can be put in a condition to provide more confidence by either machining or using a mic on them. Therefore getting the best you can from the parts your budget permits.
Most everybody wants the conversation where they hear their new, expensive (to them) engine will be great and last forever. There is NO way to explain with any degree of success that the engine will be as durable as the weakest part. Coupled with how it's maintained and treated.
I'm doing a 383 for a guy now with the Pro Comp heads and rods. We've gone over the parts. I reconed the new rods and did them with the owner standing next to me. More than anything else, I want him to be happy with the size and effort I put into his parts.
He's using a seasoned block, so I sonic mapped the block for him when we decided to make the build.
I've found that when I let that happen I have a more pleased customer, and if it granades they seem to understand I have done all I could do to build his engine.
Sometime it's a pain to have them standing usually where I'm going, but they seem to appreciate it. Then again I don't do near the volume these guys are.
When I tried volume I ended up with staff who I was resonsable for and couldn't stand over all day. I really make more money reducing volume and staff.
Had a guy turning cranks once over tightened the mic just a bit turned 20 or so cranks oversized before I caught it. It's different when your name is on it or you have to make it good for a mistake.
That's why many many machine shops go under. Over debt and a few bad engines. A do over cost dearly time and money
I had a friend who closed his buiness and opened one selling repo machine shop equipment. Heck, makes more money that way.

 

Sorry but I need to step in here, I have bought alot of parts from Skip White and have been VERY pleased with the products and the SERVICE.

 

Blockman, great links good information to base a judgement on. I'll copy those for future use. Thanks.

 

I have bought parts from them as well. Parts and service were as expected. No problems at all. Based on the description of the engine and parts list I would pass. Not the quality of parts I would want used in my build.

 

I don't remember anyone questioning their skill level. It sounded to me as though it was an issue of part quality vs. budget.
I bet if you ask them if they would rather be building with the top of the line parts, they would agree.
That's where budget comes into play. What the cheaper parts do, is open up custom built engines, to a budget that handle it. As long as the buyer understands that there may be issues with some of the cheaper parts. That's why, I think people discuss this issue. I don't want someone who may have a budget that can handle top shelf parts think they are getting top quality parts at a very reduced price.
As long as the buyer understands "These parts are not as good as others" Most shops can measure. Very few places, no machine shops I know, can tell you the content of metal. So as Blockman has shown, you get what you pay for. Just don't mislead a customer into thinking they are getting a TOP QUALITY engine. They may very well be getting top quality craftsman ship with reguard to the machining and building, but the parts are what they are.
Thats why if I am using those parts I explain that, or in the case of the cranks, turn them right out of the box. So I know they are to size and true.
I think where this exchange is coming from is the perception that the builders skills are being questioned. This is not the case, at least from my perspective. Half a$$ builders normally don't have that quality of equipment.

 

A few years ago we could have got into the market on the cheap chinese parts and we could have bought 4340 cranks for 275.00 and H beam rods for 150.00 but after looking the parts over they were not good as far a sizing ETC.

We use quality parts people now of such as Callies, Crower, Kings ETC.

If we had to we would use a Scat if needed but that has been many years, Eagle cranks I stay away from.

Just my .02