Originally Posted by BillyTz06

Does the prop valve come apart or do you mean remove the brake lines from the valve and clean it out? If it was the prop valve wouldn't I be getting pressure to the front and not the rear or pressure to the rear and not the front, depending on which way the valve was stuck. I can try that in the morning though. I didn't blow the lines out because I was getting plenty of fluid flow through the lines before I started replacing parts, If the lines were stoped up wouldn't I have some pedal pressure? Remember I did crack the lines at the master and bleed some fluid out each time I reinstalled the master so I don;t think there would be much air left in the lines before getting to the calipers. I just found out that Advance Auto Parts has a pump up power bleeder as one of their loaner tools. I will borrow that in the morning rather than ordering a motive. If anything was stopped up or valves closed ,etc., in other words anything preventing flow, why wouldn't I have some pedal pressure . It would be the same as putting plugs in the m/c ports to stop the flow and I had a rock hard full pedal when I did that. There is just more to this than I understand.

Originally Posted by BillyTz06

I tried bench bleeding my old master cylinder but there was to much trash floating around and it was taking forever trying to flush it out so I decided to pick up the m/c rebuild kit that I ordered. I rebuilt my new chrome m/c, bench bled it , installed on the car, bled the lines at the m/c and proceeded to bleed the system. It was worst than before. Some fluid imeadiatly came out of the inner rr bleeder then stopped flowing. The rest of the bleeders on the rear were the same. Went to right front and a unusual amount of fluid came out. The left front was the same way. Bleed the whole system again and can hardly get any fluid out of the rear. So there the car sits. Im about at my wits end. Anybody got a very large caliper gun ....... no ,not for me .... the car. Where do I go from here?

Originally Posted by noonie

If you are getting lots of fluid out the fronts and a trickle out the back as you said in post #25, then your combo/proportioning/differential valve is tripped. It has to be recentered. That's at least half of your pedal travel right there.

If your master is truly as dirty as you said in post #25, then so is your combo valve. It would be wise to remove and clean it.

Originally Posted by BillyTz06

That's a good thought. You are right about the m/c. I talked to a Goodyear ASE certified tech tonight and he said about the same thing about the m/c. He also told me to try bleeding the system by not pumping the brake pedal but to hold the pedal at its normal position, about half way down, open the bleeder on the caliper, then push the pedal all the way down, close the bleeder screw, release the pedal back to its normal position and repeat until you get fluid flow at the bleeder screw. I will give this a try after I get my lines back together and clean /replace the prop valve tomorrow. It can't hurt, I've tried about everything else except the one thing that will work, whatever that is !!!

Originally Posted by noonie

It's staring to make sense now.

Read these instructions for pedal bleeding. start where it says 'Cue the Helper"

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...enance/4213448

If you weren't bleeding it this way, exactly how were you pedal bleeding?

It makes no difference when pedal bleeding, Starting with pedal all the way released is normal. In fact with pedal bleeding. starting half way down can damage the seals in masters other than new.
Reread post #7 as to how the master works internally.

Originally Posted by Kid Vette

Are you serious?

Originally Posted by BillyTz06

That's a good thought. You are right about the m/c. I talked to a Goodyear ASE certified tech tonight and he said about the same thing about the m/c. He also told me to try bleeding the system by not pumping the brake pedal but to hold the pedal at its normal position, about half way down, open the bleeder on the caliper, then push the pedal all the way down, close the bleeder screw, release the pedal back to its normal position and repeat until you get fluid flow at the bleeder screw. I will give this a try after I get my lines back together and clean /replace the prop valve tomorrow. It can't hurt, I've tried about everything else except the one thing that will work, whatever that is !!!

Originally Posted by ...Roger...

After re-reading your posts it appears you are "pumping", that's a no no on C2 C3 brakes. If your using the pedal method of bleeding , use SLOW down and up strokes.
You say to pedal person "DOWN" , PP starts the pushing the pedal down slowly , quickly You open the bleeder , when pedal is down,PP says pedal is "down" and PP "keeps" pedal down , You close bleeder , You say "UP" , PP lets pedal come up slowly and says "up" when pedal is up , you pause for a couple seconds ,
You say to pedal person "DOWN" , PP starts the pushing the pedal down slowly , quickly You open the bleeder , when pedal is down,PP says pedal is "down" and PP "keeps" pedal down , You close bleeder , You say "UP" , PP lets pedal come up slowly and says "up" when pedal is up , you pause for a couple seconds.

(Once you get going it will turn into.You say Down and open bleeder ,PP says Down ,You -close bleeder and say UP , PP says Up , pause , you say Down and open bleeder ,PP says Down ,You -close bleeder and say UP , PP says Up , pause , You say Down and open bleeder and on and on.)

Originally Posted by noonie

That's the age old method that works perfectly.
At any point the PP can test for increased pedal with the bleeders closed.
Use clear tubing on the bleeders, it's easier to see air bubbles released.
This method can also take some time, so don't quit too early.

Originally Posted by ...Roger...

Also if you do use the clear tubing on the bleeders,take note a tiny bit of air can come in around the bleeder threads and show up in the tube,this won't hurt a thing but if you want to stop the tiny bubbles apply pipe dope or teflon tape to the bleeder threads.

(I generally start off when installing new calipers by tefloning the threads because on occasion I'll drop the clear tube into a glass bottle of fluid so "1" I can see the bubbles coming up in the fluid during bleeding and "2" I sometimes use the glass bottle in the same fashion as the Speedbleeders.)

And one other note , when the PP tests for pedal pressure early in the process don't pump up the pedal,press once and hold,pumping early on might cause the the bubbles to break into smaller bubbles which will be more difficult to get out.

Originally Posted by BillyTz06

Maybe you don't fully understand my problem. I HAVE NO PEDAL !!! I can't get any fluid to come out the bleeders because when the pp pushes down, the pedal is on the floor. Even when the pp pumps three times there is not enough pedal to push fluid out the bleeder. I know , it sounds like the m/c. I'm going out to the shop and pull the prop valve off right now and see what that looks like. BTW, I am using a clear bleeder line with new fluid in the bottom of a clear jaw. Trust me , I'm not new to this. We'll figure this thing out sooner or later, hopefully sooner. Thanks for your continued help.

Originally Posted by Tom454

I have this in a file because I got tired of re-typing it here.
I used to own & operate my own 7 bay repair/machine shop (NJ) so I was able to try a lot of different techniques. I also had a shop in NY State before the 7 bay shop in NJ.

The C2/C3 brake system is not all that complicated relative to other designs.
Once you understand the "physics" of the system, the BS ends.
I actually enjoy doing C3 brakes.... it's so easy.

Bleeding:

First, anyone who tells you the order is important doesn't understand hydraulics.

The 1966 Service Manual has a bleeding order chart in Figure 3 on page 5-2 that specifies RR, LR, RF, LF and on page 5-19 it also says
“If an air pressure bleeder tank is used, operate with a low pressure of 10 to 20 psi to prevent aeration of the fluid”.

It does not address inner and outer caliper half bleeding order.

The 1970 Service Manual says on page 5-4:
“If the master cylinder is equipped with bleeder valves, bleed these valves first, then proceed to the wheel cylinder nearest the master cylinder then, the next nearest and so on until all cylinders have been bleed and there is no evidence of air. The 1970 Service Manual also says on page 5-22: “The rear calipers contain two bleeder valves (one inboard and one outboard) which necessitates the removal the rear wheels for bleeding.”

It also does not address inner and outer caliper half bleeding order.

So, in two GM Service Manuals we have two opposing philosophies… farthest to nearest, and nearest to farthest.

There is no difference in the order in which the calipers are bled... regardless of what they say. I did an experiment to prove this specifically for forum members a while back.
I repeatedly opened up lines on my own C3 and drained them, and re-bled the system in random order. There was absolutely no difference in system performance based on the order of bleed. So don't get hung up on order... it is irrelevant.

I knew the answer to this question before I even started the experiment due to the enormous quantity and variety of brake jobs I did in my shop.

For example, when doing NY State Vehicle inspections, in order to prevent shops from gouging people at inspection time, you are required by law to fix only things that are broken or are a safety issue. So, when a single wheel cylinder (or caliper) was leaking, you had to fix ONLY that one item.... not all four. Although bleeding all 4 is good practice, this meant you had to bleed only that one item if the rest were okay. This is what was done... and the cars brakes all worked fine after the work was complete.

The front and rear circuits are in “parallel”… both are fed simultaneously from the switch. Each has the same opportunity to get air in the fluid, neither is more likely than the other. Taking it to the next level, the two front calipers are also in parallel… both are fed simultaneously from the switch. Each has equal opportunity to get air in the fluid, neither is more likely than the other. Both rear calipers are in parallel running off the rear distribution block… Each has equal opportunity to get air in the fluid, neither is more likely than the other. This is why “order” does not matter.

C2/C3 Corvette calipers are composed of two halves. If you bleed the half FARTHEST away from the hose/line connection first, and then the half CLOSEST to the hose connection, then you can re-introduce air back into the caliper-half farthest from the hose connection. These passages are in “series”. So when bleeding an individual caliper, it is important to bleed the caliper half closest to the hose/line (the inner half) connection first.

Remember this concept instead of left inner right outer right inner left outer right outer blah blah blah etc. It's much easier just to understand the principle as explained above, and you do not have to follow any memorized "order".

Recap…. M/C first, then any caliper, but inner half first.

The M/C (master cylinder) always has to be first because any air in or around the M/C is forced "downstream" where it causes problems.

The first objective is to remove all of the air in the M/C.

To (bench) bleed the M/C, you need fittings & tubes to route the fluid from the exit ports back into the reservoir on top. These used to come with a new/rebuilt M/C, but you can make your own by buying short pieces of brake line and bending it.
Install the tubes & press the M/C piston (pedal) until you get a solid, bubble free flow all around. The M/C is mounted at an angle in the car… air bubbles can get trapped in the highest point of the bore… so try to (un)tilt it to “level” the playing field.
With DOT5, just go nice & slow & steady and you will not generate the tiny bubbles that DOT5 is famous for.

Side Note: The M/C output ports for the brake lines are not drilled in the top of the main bore. They are offset. This means there will be an air space above the ports where air can be trapped. With the M/C mounted in the car, and the car sitting level, this will happen.
Mounted on the bench (bench bleeding), the M/C can be positioned to minimize this problem.

To test the M/C at this point, remove the tubes and replace them with inverted flare plugs, being careful not to allow more than a few drops of fluid to run out of the ports when you switch over to plugs from tubes.

The ports on the M/C are inverted flare, and you can either buy or make inverted flare plugs for them. To make your own, buy brake line with the correct inverted flare fitting, cut them off about 2 inches from the end, use a hammer to flatten the tubing for about 1 inch opposite the fitting end.


Again press the piston (pedal). The M/C should be hard as a rock.
If not, there is still air in the passages, or the internal seals are bad, or in some cases, the piston & seals assembly is put together wrong... I have seen this on new M/C’s.

Once the M/C is finished, it's time to bleed the lines & calipers.

If you have a brake switch (AKA proportion valve), it can cause problems at this point.
Some C2’s did not come with a switch/valve. I believe all C3’s did.

A good, properly functioning proportion valve (misnomer.. it's only a switch) will not allow you to bleed the brakes one line at a time. The principle of operation is such that when one line/caliper leaks (or is open for bleeding), hydraulic pressure (M/C-pedal pressure) will cause the valve's internal piston to slide to one side, activating the dash brake light, and closing off the opposite (front or rear) fluid circuit, rendering that closed off circuit un-bleedable. When this happens, the closed off half of the valve will allow little or no fluid to be bled through that circuit (front or rear).

===> The trick in this case is to re-center the valve and to bleed one front & one rear caliper simultaneously.

Re-centering a poorly functioning valve can be difficult- I have used DRY compressed air forced backwards through the lines to the valve to force the piston back to its center position (dash light goes off), and I have used simple brake pedal pressure to re-center it. The method used depends on how bad the valve is sticking. You may have to rebuild or replace the valve (switch). The air MUST be dry, or you will be blowing water into the system along with the air.

I have disassembled several of these and documented their internal structure, again for the benefit of forum members.

If you can bleed a C3 brake system without dealing with this problem, then the brake switch is sticking and is not functioning properly… which I find on 9 out of 10 Vette’s.

Bleeding the bakes....

Any method that works for you is fine. Everyone has their preference.
The choice of one method over another is a religious experience for some.
“The xyz method is the best and only way to bleed the brakes.” Hogwash.

Key essential point: never let the M/C run dry while bleeding. You must re-bench bleed the M/C and start the line bleeding process all over again if the fluid in the M/C drops to, or below the tiny orifices in reservoir.

Gravity
Pedal
Vacuum
Pressurized

Gravity-
You can bleed a -properly functioning- C3 with a small piece of rubber hose and a coffee cup... no special tools.
All you need is a tool to open/close the bleeders.
The rubber hose is attached to the bleeder, the bleeder is opened, fluid is allowed to flow via gravity until clear & bubble free, and the bleeder is then closed. Don’t expect a fire hose… it runs slow. If you’re in a hurry, then this method is not for you.

To avoid rounding off of the bleeder, use a small 6 point socket to initially crack the bleeders open, but use a box wrench to open/close them while bleeding. The wrench can remain on the bleeder while bleeding, a socket cannot due to your bleeder hose connection. Use a box wrench because it has less of a chance of rounding off the bleeder than an open-end wrench. Tubing wrenches are usually too fat to fit here... good for fittings, but not for bleeders.

You can gravity bleed all or one at a time... place the hose on the bleeder and set it up so that the hose is in the bottom of the coffee cup so no air can travel up the hose backwards once there is some fluid in the bottom of the cup. Open a bleeder(s). Let gravity do its thing. Close the bleeder(s).

Most of the time, fluid will not start to flow all by itself. If not, then a few slow pumps of the M/C with the bleeder(s) open should get it flowing. Remember.... the brake switch can foul things up here. Be aware of its principle of operation and take appropriate action if it gives you grief.

Gravity bleeding is essentially the exact same thing as pressure bleeding, except the pressure is much lower.... only induced by gravitational weight of the fluid.

Lisle (and other companies) sells a small plastic cup with hoses & fittings for brake bleeding for around $10. This is one of the cheapest, effective tools you can use.... similar to a hose & coffee cup. I use these exclusively.

This tool is intended for use with the “pedal” method, not on the "gravity" method.
I use it both ways.


Pedal-

Can be done with two people, or one person & check-valve bleeders.

Two person-
Bottom person opens a bleeder, top person presses pedal, bottom person closes bleeder BEFORE top person’s foot reaches the floor, top person lets pedal back up... repeat.
If the bleeder is closed AFTER the top person’s foot reaches the floor, then air can flow back into the caliper. The two people have to set up an agreed sequence of communication for this to work.

Check valve bleeders come in two varieties. One is the replacement bleeder with the check valve built in. The other is the separate check valve in line with a rubber hose, attached to the caliper bleeder.

Either one works if used properly.
You can buy a set of four and bleed all four calipers at once... but I have found this to be "iffy"… results unpredictable. It's better to do one front & one rear together, and then switch to the other pair. With check valve bleeders, you simply attach a hose/cup to the bleeder and open the bleeder(s) and pump the pedal.

Vacuum-

The "Mity-Vac" tool will work if used properly... but not many people can use it properly. It does have one primary flaw.... it sucks air past the bleeder threads and more importantly, past the internal piston o-ring seals instead of sucking fluid from the caliper. You can minimize this by putting pressure on the bleeder threads while drawing fluid, and by going "slow & easy" with the hand pump. Patience is the key here.


Pressure-

The current "DIY" tool for doing this does not seal properly on the C2/C3 M/C. You have to deal with that issue up front. People use all sorts of rigged up solutions (clamps etc) to make this tool work as promised. Professional pressure bleeders do not have this problem... only the $60 DIY version fails the test. This method is by far the fastest, but does not always allow time for trapped bubbles to escape like the slower gravity/pedal bleeding method does, so even after spending the money and using the tool, you may still have to gravity or pedal bleed to get a firm pedal. Brake fluid is thick (viscous) and trapped air bubbles move slowly... they need a little extra time to migrate to the bleeder orifice. Pressure bleeders tend to move the fluid faster, but the bubbles move at their own pace… they hang up on the caliper casting. I’ve seen this with some of the professional grade pressure bleeding systems with clear site glass… you can see the fluid move while a bubble stays in one spot.

If you use DOT5, then keep the pressure very low or you will introduce air bubbles into the fluid which are an issue with both DOT3 and DOT5.... but more so with DOT5.
One final note on pressure bleeders... since they use non-dry air, they can actually force water (from the air) into the fluid, which will eventually cause internal corrosion. Pressure bleeders should be used with dry air only.


Final thoughts-
In all cases, the angle of the calipers can slow down the bleeding process... air bubbles tend to float up.... not down. They look for a high spot. Just sit back and visualize the bleeder design and location and ask: "If I were a bubble, where would I go?"

Adjust your caliper angle as best you can. Calipers do not have to be mounted to be bled. You can place a piece of wood between the pistons of an un-mounted caliper to bleed it. The wood should keep the pistons all the way in their bores... or... if mounted... use jack stands accordingly to change the angle of the car… even a little bit helps. The key to this is knowing how the calipers are drilled internally... you have to take one apart to see the passages.


Fluid-

A lot of myths on the forum regarding fluid.
If you remove ALL water & water laden air from the system, DOT5 will last indefinitely.
If you disassemble a system at a later date and find water (or rust) in a DOT5 system, then either you did not remove all of the water on the first pass, or your rotors are out of spec and are pumping air & water into the calipers.

DOT5 can't be used for cars with ABS because the pulsing forms bubbles, but is fine for C3's. On my own C2, I converted to DOT5 in 1976. 20 years later (1996), I removed all of the fluid, ran it through a strainer to get chunks of rubber out (deteriorated seals) and then re-used it. There was absolutely no rust or water in the system after 20 years. It does not wear out. It does not melt paint like DOT3/4 does. So you can paint your parts and not worry about the fluid ruining all of your hard work.

Some people claim DOT5 is not good for racing because of its lower boiling point and compressibility... others use it for racing with no problems. It depends on the type and intensity of the racing.

For street, DOT5 has no issues.

DOT3 is cheaper, readily available, has a higher boiling point & is less compressible, but it absorbs water and must be changed regularly or your system will rot from the inside out... including the lines if they're not stainless. DOT3 works fine as long as you follow the rules associated with it... specifically, regular flushing.

Converting from one fluid to another:
Either way... disassemble the ENTIRE system and clean it out manually... do not rely on flushing. This includes the proportioning valve/switch. Flushing is at best 50% effective in removing the other fluid and contaminants... especially in the proportioning valve where fluid does not flow "through" the device. Don't waste your time with flushing... it will bite you later on. A manual disassembly and cleaning is mandatory.

This is just some of the info I have gained over the years... since I work on all cars, not just Corvettes.

Hope it helps.

Tom

Originally Posted by BillyTz06

Alright, the porp valve is off, blew it out with air , cleaned it with brake cleaner, didn't see any foreign material at all. I don't see any thing wrong with it but I'm not sure what I would be looking for that would be wrong. When I blow air thru the front m/c port it comes out of the front brake ports, when I blow air thru the rear m/c port it comes out of the rear brake port. With the switch out of it and looking down into the hole I cannot see anything moving when I apply air. What triggers the switch when there is a malfuntion with the brakes. I may see if I can find a new prop valve locally just to be sure.