Am i getting ripped off by engine builder
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 208
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Am i getting ripped off by engine builder
A few months ago I gave an engine builder $2500 (about 1/2 the estimate) to build my corvette 350 into a 383 with about 450-460 horsepower. The progress has been very slow. He tells me the engine was shipped out of state to a very good machine shop in Vermont. The components to be used kept changing and the current components are E-Street heads that are supposedly quite worked on by the machine guy in Vermont, a solid lifter flat tappet cam (know no specs), a new crankshaft, and pistons in the 10:1 range, a Performer Air Gap manifold with Holley Carb. Also a pair of headers will be provided (supposedly Hedman). I have no idea what is happening to the stock exhaust (pipes, mufflers cat). There is no estimate on when the engine will be finished. The guy hit me for $1300 more dollars and (like a fool) I paid him without getting some things clear. Have I screwed up hopelessly or do those components seem like they can produce 450 hp? I know who the guy is in Vermont and hehas a great reputation but I have been reluctant to call him.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
Well, there's a couple of thoughts that come to mind. These situations are always a little tough to deal with from the outside. I'll make an offer to get on a conference call with you and the builder ANY TIME to talk through it.
$5K seems a little shy for that power level - but I suspect a good part of it are the E-Street heads. At 248/163 intake/exhaust flow I can't see hitting your power targets with those heads. I can't speak to the other components as there's just no detail there.
The no estimate for completion date and having to ship the engine for machine work (?) is not acceptable and IMHO indicative of problems. Certainly asking for more money if the original deal was 50/50 is also trouble.
I wouldn't be reluctant at all to call the machine shop that has your engine. You're doing business with him, so what's the issue?
I suggest a friendly, open discussion and stating that you have plans for the car and need a) the build sheet with all specs, parts, etc. and b) a firm delivery date. I would also ensure you have something in writing (paper or electronic) with the estimate and the power targets.
$5K seems a little shy for that power level - but I suspect a good part of it are the E-Street heads. At 248/163 intake/exhaust flow I can't see hitting your power targets with those heads. I can't speak to the other components as there's just no detail there.
The no estimate for completion date and having to ship the engine for machine work (?) is not acceptable and IMHO indicative of problems. Certainly asking for more money if the original deal was 50/50 is also trouble.
I wouldn't be reluctant at all to call the machine shop that has your engine. You're doing business with him, so what's the issue?
I suggest a friendly, open discussion and stating that you have plans for the car and need a) the build sheet with all specs, parts, etc. and b) a firm delivery date. I would also ensure you have something in writing (paper or electronic) with the estimate and the power targets.
Last edited by billla; Oct 16, 2011 at 10:05 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 38
From: Cedar,BC
You are far too trusting.I would not have handed over more than a small deposit until I saw some machine work being done or the parts delivered to the shop.I hope it all works out for you,right now it doesn't sound good,they have all your money leaving you with none to little leverage...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,116
Likes: 5
From: Livonia MI
Not sounding good to me, as build my own engines. While lots of precision work involved, not to bad with the proper tools and experience, and shouldn't be taking this long. I've had good luck with the machine shops I've used, but have others with stories. Sometimes when a shop messes up, they try charging the customer more to cover for it. Know a guy with a 406 build that kept trashing bearings, having to pull the motor several times. Turns out, the rear main thrust cap oil pump mounting threads didn't have a bottom, and to long a pump bolt was pressing on the bearing. The fight on this wasn't pretty, with guy eating it and going to another shop. Not trying to scare, but this stuff can happen. Hopefully your's turns out fine.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 208
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
More explaination
THe money covers not only about 1/2 the cost os the rebuild but has been increased to include new water pump, new oil pump, new fuel pump and an aluminum radiator. Basically I think the guy in Vermont is legit (he is well known on this forum). The guy here locally never even told me he was sending the engine to Vermont( idrug it out of him). I am thinking about giving the guy here a deadline (say Thanksgiving) and telling me he has to be done or get a lawyer. Yeah, I am an ******* that would sue for $4000.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
Typically these types of items aren't included in a build unless called out. Is the shop doing the actual installation as well?
There are a lot of red flags here - you've got my advice and offer. Threatening legal action is a big step - and you may find that without a paper trail your suit may not get very far. Don't get me wrong - you need to get things on an even keel, but I see a lot better luck being open, honest and direct vs. hard-assed...
There are a lot of red flags here - you've got my advice and offer. Threatening legal action is a big step - and you may find that without a paper trail your suit may not get very far. Don't get me wrong - you need to get things on an even keel, but I see a lot better luck being open, honest and direct vs. hard-assed...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
It's not unusual that an engine builder doesn't do their own machine work. I build about 10 engines/year, working with a *local* shop. However, I can't imagine shipping for this...if anything needs a "tweak" - and things often do - you're going back-and-forth.
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Drifting
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,704
Likes: 27
This is why next time I'm just gonna build my own engine. I get frustrated with even "reputable" builders. They can be slow, and they may have so many engines going at one time, yours could get lost in the shuffle. They seem to always cater to whoever is spending the most money, which leaves us little guys begging for table scraps. Next time around, I'm getting my machine work done on the block LOCAL and building it myself.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,558
Likes: 4
From: Oakland California
You are far too trusting.I would not have handed over more than a small deposit until I saw some machine work being done or the parts delivered to the shop.I hope it all works out for you,right now it doesn't sound good,they have all your money leaving you with none to little leverage...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,116
Likes: 5
From: Livonia MI
As already mentioned, legal actions not a good idea, as could drain you of several times the cost/time, and likely still no engine. Went through this a few times on smaller legal threats in my direction, just paying it and moved on. If you can physically get hold of the engine as is, maybe best doing just that.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 3
From: NORTHEAST
Sounds like you are dealing with an engine assembler that does not have the equipment to do the whole job!! You should be dealing with a shop the can do the job in house.
There are a lot of wanna be engine builders out there that work out of a 1 bay garage and have no control over any of the work being done and when there is a problem there will be a lot of finger pointing going on.
It sounds like you should deal with the shop direct and if you the ability to assemble it yourself that may be the way to go.
Good luck
There are a lot of wanna be engine builders out there that work out of a 1 bay garage and have no control over any of the work being done and when there is a problem there will be a lot of finger pointing going on.
It sounds like you should deal with the shop direct and if you the ability to assemble it yourself that may be the way to go.
Good luck
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,676
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
I don't see a problem yet, but as the above post states you should be dealing with a shop that has the equipment to do everything inhouse and get a list and price of all the parts. Who do you think is going to pay for shipping 200# back and forth
Last edited by MotorHead; Oct 17, 2011 at 12:22 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,458
Likes: 331
From: Indy Indiana
before you start thinking about a lawyer, think about how much you have been damaged with a provable dollar amount. also you will need to show a contract and prove that he has not fulfilled his contract.
you think you have pissed away money already.. wait until you pay a lawyer a retainer fee.. that is truly pissing away money.. good money after bad.
this is to a good degree your fault by not getting costs and dates in writing and having penalty clauses. A judge is not going to give you your money back.
you think you have pissed away money already.. wait until you pay a lawyer a retainer fee.. that is truly pissing away money.. good money after bad.
this is to a good degree your fault by not getting costs and dates in writing and having penalty clauses. A judge is not going to give you your money back.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 208
Likes: 2
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
I agree that this is my fault. I got wrapped up in the fact the local engine builder has national exposre and assumed he would do a good job. As for getting a lawyer thats a long way off but we do have a verbal contract and I have a witness to it. If I sue him , it will be strictly for vengance. I am most concerned that those items I listed won't produce the horsepower I require. More around 400 HP I think.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,727
Likes: 38
From: Fremont CA
Sounds to me like the assembler is the only thing tweaking in this story. Something isn't going well here. I hope it all works out OK for you.