C3 Tech/Performance V8 Technical Info, Internal Engine, External Engine, Basic Tech and Maintenance for the C3 Corvette
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Distributor question: Is this normal? (video link inside)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 06:32 PM
  #1  
StingrayLust's Avatar
StingrayLust
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
10 Year Member
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 850
Likes: 12
From: Shakopee MN
Default Distributor question: Is this normal? (video link inside)

I decided to start a different thread rather than change the direction of my carb thread.

I've never thought that much about my distributor until I had everything replaced on the engine besides the block and heads. I noticed at idle that the sound at the mufflers didn't seem right to me, like it was skipping. But at that point, I had changed so much stuff it was hard for me to nail down what it was. I'm pretty sure there isn't a vacuum leak. During testing at idle with the vacuum host disconnect at the distributor, I was getting about 14-15 Hg's. As soon as I connected the vacuum hose to the distributor, I'd get 19 Hg and the engine would suddenly rev a bit higher.

When I connect the hose to the distributor, I can hear the distributor click like the vacuum advance is already kicking in somewhat at idle and there is a very slight increase in RPM.

Is this normal?

Maybe you can hear the difference in this video of before and after connecting the hose how the exhaust note changes and it sounds like there are some skips.

The car drives fine at speed with no hesitation or bogging. Maybe this is just something I'll have to live with?

PS: I didn't have my tach hooked up so I can't be sure RPM I was running at idle.

http://vimeo.com/31930131
Reply
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 06:51 PM
  #2  
gkull's Avatar
gkull
Team Owner
25 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Default

The carb should have two vacuum ports. Called non-ported and ported

You want the "Zero" at idle port so you are not getting the additional vacuum advance
Reply
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 07:25 PM
  #3  
Mike Ward's Avatar
Mike Ward
Race Director
10 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Default

That's absolutely normal. You want full vacuum at idle port so you get the maximum vacuum advance possible. Ported vacuum is a (pretty dumb) smog initiative.
Reply
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 07:40 PM
  #4  
Jeff_Keryk's Avatar
Jeff_Keryk
Drifting
20 Year Member
Liked
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,879
Likes: 38
From: Los Gatos CA
Default

You want a vacuum cannister rated lower then idle vacuum. Otherwise, idle will fluctuate because the vacuum advance is not steady. In that case ported vacuum can help. Generally, more advance at idle offers cooler temps and better off-idle transition. GM started using ported vacuum advance as a smog device. The early ones ran really crappy!
Reply
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 07:43 PM
  #5  
StingrayLust's Avatar
StingrayLust
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
10 Year Member
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 850
Likes: 12
From: Shakopee MN
Default

Originally Posted by Mike Ward
That's absolutely normal. You want full vacuum at idle port so you get the maximum vacuum advance possible. Ported vacuum is a (pretty dumb) smog initiative.
So you think the idle with vacuum advance sounds correct in my video? I've watched a lot of YouTube videos of a chevy 350 idling and don't hear the kind of skipping I hear in mine, they sound a lot more smoother (like mine does before I connect the hose).

I believe my hose connections, as seen in the video, are setup correctly.

I'm not that familiar yet with dizzies, and was reading this link. Is it possible that my vacuum advance is set too high?

I found this thread on this site here:

JohnZ
Team Member
John Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Washington, Michigan USA
Posts: 5,391



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As many of you are aware, timing and vacuum advance is one of my favorite subjects, as I was involved in the development of some of those systems in my GM days and I understand it. Many people don't, as there has been very little written about it anywhere that makes sense, and as a result, a lot of folks are under the misunderstanding that vacuum advance somehow compromises performance. Nothing could be further from the truth. I finally sat down the other day and wrote up a primer on the subject, with the objective of helping more folks to understand vacuum advance and how it works together with initial timing and centrifugal advance to optimize all-around operation and performance. I have this as a Word document if anyone wants it sent to them - I've cut-and-pasted it here; it's long, but hopefully it's also informative.

TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.
__________________
JohnZ
CRG

Last edited by StingrayLust; Nov 10, 2011 at 07:51 PM.
Reply
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 07:49 PM
  #6  
gkull's Avatar
gkull
Team Owner
25 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Default

Yes you could very well have way to much advance at idle with the vac adv additional
Reply
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 08:36 PM
  #7  
RobbSalzmann's Avatar
RobbSalzmann
Burning Brakes
Supporting Lifetime Gold
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 6
From: Tucson AZ
St. Jude Donor '12
Default

Originally Posted by gkull
The carb should have two vacuum ports. Called non-ported and ported

You want the "Zero" at idle port so you are not getting the additional vacuum advance
George, I've heard "metered" and "unmetered", is what you're saying the same thing? Is it different because of different brands of carbs?
Reply
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 10:18 PM
  #8  
Mike Ward's Avatar
Mike Ward
Race Director
10 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Default

Originally Posted by StingrayLust
So you think the idle with vacuum advance sounds correct in my video?
What I meant is the reaction of timing and idle increase when plugging in the vacuum can is normal, as is running the car with full time vacuum. The paper you found written by John Hinckley is spot on with the reasons why.

When you disconnect the vacuum line, you need to plug the port on the carburetor to prevent a vacuum leak. Operating with an open port will throw everything off.

I'd start with the timing basics, get that sorted away and then worry about carb. FWIW, your idle sounds fine to me with the full time vacuum. With it disconnected, I've heard healthier sounding lawn tractors.
Reply
Corvette Stories

The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts

story-0

8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time

 Verdad Gallardo
story-1

Top 10 Corvette Engines RANKED by Peak Torque (70+ Years of Muscle!)

 Joe Kucinski
story-2

Corvette ZR1X Will Be Pacing the Indy 500, And Could Probably Race, Too!

 Verdad Gallardo
story-3

Top 10 Corvettes Coming to Mecum Indy 2026!

 Brett Foote
story-4

Top 10 C9 Corvette MUST-HAVES to Fix These C8 Generation Flaws!

 Michael S. Palmer
story-5

10 Revolutionary 'Corvette Firsts' Most People Don't Know

 Joe Kucinski
story-6

5 Reasons to Upgrade to an LS6-Powered Corvette; 5 Reasons to Stay LT2

 Michael S. Palmer
story-7

2027 Corvette vs The World: Every C8 vs Its Closest Competitor

 Joe Kucinski
story-8

10 Most Common Corvette Problems of the Last 20 Years!

 Joe Kucinski
story-9

5 MOST and 5 LEAST Popular Corvette Model Years in History!

 Joe Kucinski
Old Nov 10, 2011 | 11:25 PM
  #9  
69427's Avatar
69427
Tech Contributor
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,835
Likes: 959
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Default

Originally Posted by Mike Ward
What I meant is the reaction of timing and idle increase when plugging in the vacuum can is normal, as is running the car with full time vacuum. The paper you found written by John Hinckley is spot on with the reasons why.When you disconnect the vacuum line, you need to plug the port on the carburetor to prevent a vacuum leak. Operating with an open port will throw everything off.

I'd start with the timing basics, get that sorted away and then worry about carb. FWIW, your idle sounds fine to me with the full time vacuum. With it disconnected, I've heard healthier sounding lawn tractors.
Actually, that's not correct. Vacuum advance is there to compensate for low density (low cylinder pressure) burn rates (which are typically slower). It is NOT a bandaid for lean or rich mixtures over the RPM range. It's an error that keeps getting repeated.
Reply
Old Nov 11, 2011 | 01:08 AM
  #10  
gkull's Avatar
gkull
Team Owner
25 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Default

Originally Posted by Mike Ward
That's absolutely normal. You want full vacuum at idle port so you get the maximum vacuum advance possible. Ported vacuum is a (pretty dumb) smog initiative.
The smart person thinks about how to best modify the stock setup.

#1. Recurve the dist. mechanical advance, so you can set your initial timing at 14-20 degrees. experiment ahead of time and figure out where your max vacuum is at idle.

#2 If it is 18 degrees recourve it for 20 mech advance on heads that require 38 total.

#3 Now use "Zero" vacuum advance from the correct port at idle because you already have the highest vacuum setting at 18 in this case.

#4 Buy an adjustable vacuum advance and limit it to about 6 - 12 degrees additional.

You go buy a digital distributer where you can turn a little dial and make all your mech. advance, vacuum amount, when timing is all in, and skip the parts #1 - 4

Last edited by pewter99; Nov 11, 2011 at 08:37 AM. Reason: removed unnecessary namecalling
Reply
Old Nov 11, 2011 | 01:12 AM
  #11  
Mike Ward's Avatar
Mike Ward
Race Director
10 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Default

Originally Posted by 69427
Actually, that's not correct. Vacuum advance is there to compensate for low density (low cylinder pressure) burn rates (which are typically slower). It is NOT a bandaid for lean or rich mixtures over the RPM range. It's an error that keeps getting repeated.
Which part are you disagreeing with- John's paper, or the need to plug open vacuum pots.

Either way- why is vacuum advance a bad idea?
Reply
Old Nov 11, 2011 | 10:30 AM
  #12  
69427's Avatar
69427
Tech Contributor
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,835
Likes: 959
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Default

Originally Posted by Mike Ward
Which part are you disagreeing with- John's paper, or the need to plug open vacuum pots. I disagree with the author's assertion that VA is used to compensate for poor fuel metering by the carburetor. The VA has NO idea what the A/F ratio in the cylinder is. It is there to compensate for the differing combustion burn rates due to the different density/pressure in the cylinder caused by different throttle positions/manifold vacuum/MAP value. Either way- why is vacuum advance a bad idea?
It's not, and I've never stated that. You will not find another person/engine guy/engineer who is a bigger advocate of load-based spark advance than me. I've posted more than my share of posts trying to correct the old-school types who think pure mechanical advance is the key to performance nirvana.

ps: Regarding your question about the need to plug open vacuum ports, did you ACTUALLY think I would disagree with plugging vacuum plugs/leaks? I don't expect you to believe/agree with everything I post, but come on.
Reply
Old Nov 11, 2011 | 10:46 AM
  #13  
Mike Ward's Avatar
Mike Ward
Race Director
10 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Default

Yes, it was quite late/early when I posted. Just ignore

I think you and John are really agreeing more than differing at least.
Reply
Old Nov 11, 2011 | 11:08 AM
  #14  
69427's Avatar
69427
Tech Contributor
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,835
Likes: 959
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Default

Originally Posted by Mike Ward
Yes, it was quite late/early when I posted. Just ignore No problem.

I think you and John are really agreeing more than differing at least.
That's correct.
Reply
Old Nov 11, 2011 | 05:05 PM
  #15  
7T1vette's Avatar
7T1vette
Team Owner
15 Year Member
Community Builder
Community Influencer
Top Answer: 5
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,114
From: Crossville TN
Default

69427....

Other folks, who do not have the same level of knowledge or understanding of specific issues as you, might be uninformed...but they are not necessarily less intelligent than you, nor do they deserve less respect because of their 'perceived' ignorance on your part.

Maybe you should try being a little more civil in your responses, rather than chiding someone for having less knowledge or by professing your ultimate wisdom so much.

Again, maybe it's difficult for you, being amongst and having to suffer us 'little people' in these threads....
Reply
Old Nov 11, 2011 | 11:50 PM
  #16  
69427's Avatar
69427
Tech Contributor
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,835
Likes: 959
From: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Default

Originally Posted by 7T1vette
69427....

Other folks, who do not have the same level of knowledge or understanding of specific issues as you, might be uninformed...but they are not necessarily less intelligent than you, nor do they deserve less respect because of their 'perceived' ignorance on your part.

Maybe you should try being a little more civil in your responses, rather than chiding someone for having less knowledge or by professing your ultimate wisdom so much.

Again, maybe it's difficult for you, being amongst and having to suffer us 'little people' in these threads....

Good grief, lighten up.


Mike Ward has demonstrated in countless posts that he's a big boy, and I'm quite certain he didn't lose a wink of sleep worrying about my post.

And regarding the published ignition writeup, I've had a couple disagreements with that over the years, and the writeup keeps popping up in different threads giving "the little people", as you say, the wrong impression on the purpose/reason for the vacuum advance system.
Reply

Get notified of new replies

To Distributor question: Is this normal? (video link inside)





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:58 PM.

story-0
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time

Slideshow: Some Corvette pace cars became collectible legends, while others perfectly captured the look and attitude of their era.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-11 09:50:51


VIEW MORE
story-1
Top 10 Corvette Engines RANKED by Peak Torque (70+ Years of Muscle!)

Slideshow: Ranking the top 10 Corvette engines by torque output.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-05-05 11:58:09


VIEW MORE
story-2
Corvette ZR1X Will Be Pacing the Indy 500, And Could Probably Race, Too!

Slideshow: A Corvette pace car nearly matching IndyCar speeds sounds exaggerated, until you look at the numbers.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-04 20:03:36


VIEW MORE
story-3
Top 10 Corvettes Coming to Mecum Indy 2026!

Among a rather large group of them.

By Brett Foote | 2026-05-04 13:56:44


VIEW MORE
story-4
Top 10 C9 Corvette MUST-HAVES to Fix These C8 Generation Flaws!

Slideshow: the top 10 things Corvette owners want in the C9 Corvette

By Michael S. Palmer | 2026-04-30 12:41:15


VIEW MORE
story-5
10 Revolutionary 'Corvette Firsts' Most People Don't Know

Slideshow: 10 Important Corvette 'firsts' that every fan should know.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-04-29 17:02:16


VIEW MORE
story-6
5 Reasons to Upgrade to an LS6-Powered Corvette; 5 Reasons to Stay LT2

Slideshow: Should you buy a 2020-2026 Corvette or wait for 2027?

By Michael S. Palmer | 2026-04-22 10:08:58


VIEW MORE
story-7
2027 Corvette vs The World: Every C8 vs Its Closest Competitor

Slideshow: 2027 Corvette lineup vs the world.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-04-24 16:12:42


VIEW MORE
story-8
10 Most Common Corvette Problems of the Last 20 Years!

Slideshow: 10 major Corvette problems from the last 20 years.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-04-14 16:37:05


VIEW MORE
story-9
5 MOST and 5 LEAST Popular Corvette Model Years in History!

Slideshow: 5 most and least popular Corvette model years.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-04-08 13:25:01


VIEW MORE