Cylinder Head Question
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,372
Likes: 215
From: Peoria Arizona
Think I found my heads. The local machine shop I mentioned has sets of 1.94 heads completely rebuilt, surfaced, mag'd and vacuum checked for $298.00 a pair. Plus having them local is a good thing just in case. They have a good reputation locally and I'm comfortable with using them, plus these heads are a good fit for my budget and the end result I'm looking for out of this car - a reliable cruiser.
Thanks again for all your feedback guys,
Adam
Thanks again for all your feedback guys,
Adam
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,323
Likes: 142
From: Green Valley Arizona
Adam,
I assume these are 75-76 cc heads, right? Any thoughts about having them shave them down a bit?
And what machine shop is this? I no longer have one here in Tucson that I am willing to use.
I assume these are 75-76 cc heads, right? Any thoughts about having them shave them down a bit?
And what machine shop is this? I no longer have one here in Tucson that I am willing to use.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,372
Likes: 215
From: Peoria Arizona
Hi Larry,
The shop is called 5 Star. Here is a link to their site: http://www.fivestarengines.com/
I have not had them do any serious machine work, so I can't say yes or not on that part. I've heard some things from the local guys that they do decent work and their prices are reasonable.
The shop is called 5 Star. Here is a link to their site: http://www.fivestarengines.com/
I have not had them do any serious machine work, so I can't say yes or not on that part. I've heard some things from the local guys that they do decent work and their prices are reasonable.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
It's just BS to call Vortec heads junk. Someone please name a pair of heads that flow ~240CFM with such a great I/E ratio for ~$600/pair, with a great chamber besides. There's a reason these are the single most popular heads on the planet right now.
Now - upgrading Vortecs I agree is a waste of money as they don't flow much past .450...so there's just no reason to invest in upgrades. It's critical to include the cost of an intake if the owner already has an aftermarket intake.
Great Tier I heads at a great price - just run 'em out of the box.
The Summit heads are complete garbage. I've worked with a set of these, and the machine work was the worst I'd ever seen. There was a huge ledge under the seats, and the pushrod holes were drilled in the wrong locations on about 1/2 the holes.
Rebuilding stock heads is seldom a good investment any more given the entry-level price of the Vortecs and other entry-level heads. Figure on about $450 for max/check, guides, valves and springs/keepers...and those are all pretty basic i.e. stock-class items. Getting them into shape with some light porting, better springs, back-cut valves, etc. and you're close enough to an iron aftermarket head to make this a poor investment.
Now - upgrading Vortecs I agree is a waste of money as they don't flow much past .450...so there's just no reason to invest in upgrades. It's critical to include the cost of an intake if the owner already has an aftermarket intake.
Great Tier I heads at a great price - just run 'em out of the box.
The Summit heads are complete garbage. I've worked with a set of these, and the machine work was the worst I'd ever seen. There was a huge ledge under the seats, and the pushrod holes were drilled in the wrong locations on about 1/2 the holes.
Rebuilding stock heads is seldom a good investment any more given the entry-level price of the Vortecs and other entry-level heads. Figure on about $450 for max/check, guides, valves and springs/keepers...and those are all pretty basic i.e. stock-class items. Getting them into shape with some light porting, better springs, back-cut valves, etc. and you're close enough to an iron aftermarket head to make this a poor investment.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 8,351
Likes: 75
From: Tampa Bay FL
Think I found my heads. The local machine shop I mentioned has sets of 1.94 heads completely rebuilt, surfaced, mag'd and vacuum checked for $298.00 a pair. Plus having them local is a good thing just in case. They have a good reputation locally and I'm comfortable with using them, plus these heads are a good fit for my budget and the end result I'm looking for out of this car - a reliable cruiser.
Thanks again for all your feedback guys,
Adam
Thanks again for all your feedback guys,
Adam
Best of luck!
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,676
Likes: 201
From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
I find it hard to believe that Summit would put their name on junk parts when they stopped selling a well know brand because of complaints. From what I understand is they just put their name on some brand or another and you don't know who actually makes them. BTW I don't and won't argue about what I said.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,593
Likes: 103
From: Southern Indiana
It's just BS to call Vortec heads junk. Someone please name a pair of heads that flow ~240CFM with such a great I/E ratio for ~$600/pair, with a great chamber besides. There's a reason these are the single most popular heads on the planet right now.
Now - upgrading Vortecs I agree is a waste of money as they don't flow much past .450...so there's just no reason to invest in upgrades. It's critical to include the cost of an intake if the owner already has an aftermarket intake.
Great Tier I heads at a great price - just run 'em out of the box.
Now - upgrading Vortecs I agree is a waste of money as they don't flow much past .450...so there's just no reason to invest in upgrades. It's critical to include the cost of an intake if the owner already has an aftermarket intake.
Great Tier I heads at a great price - just run 'em out of the box.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
Lucky no belief or argument is required as I've had direct experience with these heads. I've also heard that they're castings provided by a well-known aftermarket company (I had heard RHS, but nothing specific) but the machine work was JUNK. Things may have changed, but I tore down a set of these about 3 years ago for a simple 355 build for a friend where he wanted these heads because of the attractive price.
Take a look underneath the seats - HUGE ledges on either side. The pushrod holes I don't have pictures of, but during mock-up we found they weren't just off - they were in the wrong places! I ended up having to have a shop mill out the holes and spotface the stud bosses, then I had to use a set of adjustable guide plates to get everything to work. Also, the edges of the chamber were brutally sharp - I had to take a sanding roll to them. A bunch of work and expense to make "cheap" heads work!
I've also heard - but not seen - the same regarding the Summit intakes.
Again, if someone's got a new set and is willing to pull the valves - let's have a look
Take a look underneath the seats - HUGE ledges on either side. The pushrod holes I don't have pictures of, but during mock-up we found they weren't just off - they were in the wrong places! I ended up having to have a shop mill out the holes and spotface the stud bosses, then I had to use a set of adjustable guide plates to get everything to work. Also, the edges of the chamber were brutally sharp - I had to take a sanding roll to them. A bunch of work and expense to make "cheap" heads work!
I've also heard - but not seen - the same regarding the Summit intakes.
Again, if someone's got a new set and is willing to pull the valves - let's have a look
Last edited by billla; Nov 16, 2011 at 12:02 AM.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
If someone's doing aftermarket, then the price is a wash as it's the same for self-aligning...and I don't know of many folks that reuse the stock rockers/***** for a top.
Figure right around a grand for everything required for a Vortec top...that is the deal of the century. Again, point out any heads that will flow like that for the price.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 485
Likes: 1
From: Oakville ON
"The bottom end will stay the way it is. I have solid oil pressure and unless I find to real need to replace it, will be keeping the stock cam - just doing the heads at this point. The current heads I have are just a 1.72 / 1.50 70cc so nothing special at all. Passenger car heads IMO.
The Summit heads are designed after the "double hump" head design. Same 72cc chambers I currently have. I'm thinking they would be a decent swap for me and since they use the 2.02 / 1.60 valves should be a slight improvement in performance. My goal here is reliability and to end up with a cruiser my wife and I can enjoy."
I think the 1.94 heads are BETTER for your mild cam and are more reliable too (The 2.02s are prone to crack between the valves). Go with a real thin head gasket and dual exhaust and you will have what you want for minimal coin. You will end up with a cruiser with some scoot and fun with your 4 speed. No point shifting over 5k rpm. JMO.
If in the future you want more power, then pick heads to match a hotter cam. You could resell the rebuilt heads.
The Summit heads are designed after the "double hump" head design. Same 72cc chambers I currently have. I'm thinking they would be a decent swap for me and since they use the 2.02 / 1.60 valves should be a slight improvement in performance. My goal here is reliability and to end up with a cruiser my wife and I can enjoy."
I think the 1.94 heads are BETTER for your mild cam and are more reliable too (The 2.02s are prone to crack between the valves). Go with a real thin head gasket and dual exhaust and you will have what you want for minimal coin. You will end up with a cruiser with some scoot and fun with your 4 speed. No point shifting over 5k rpm. JMO.
If in the future you want more power, then pick heads to match a hotter cam. You could resell the rebuilt heads.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,372
Likes: 215
From: Peoria Arizona
[QUOTE=Rich's'78;1579241420]"Go with a real thin head gasket and dual exhaust and you will have what you want for minimal coin. You will end up with a cruiser with some scoot and fun with your 4 speed. No point shifting over 5k rpm. JMO.[QUOTE]
The car came with headers and new 2 1/2" full dual exhaust with flowmasters. That plus the intake, carb and ignition system upgrades should all work well with the 1.94's. I've starting digging into the intake and head removal this morning (as long as work doesn't interupt me
)
Thanks Rich!
Adam
The car came with headers and new 2 1/2" full dual exhaust with flowmasters. That plus the intake, carb and ignition system upgrades should all work well with the 1.94's. I've starting digging into the intake and head removal this morning (as long as work doesn't interupt me
)Thanks Rich!
Adam
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,593
Likes: 103
From: Southern Indiana
Yep, a whopping $65 or so for the GMPP stamped-steel rockers.
If someone's doing aftermarket, then the price is a wash as it's the same for self-aligning...and I don't know of many folks that reuse the stock rockers/***** for a top.
Figure right around a grand for everything required for a Vortec top...that is the deal of the century. Again, point out any heads that will flow like that for the price. If its not good enough then its not worth it, is it???
If someone's doing aftermarket, then the price is a wash as it's the same for self-aligning...and I don't know of many folks that reuse the stock rockers/***** for a top.
Figure right around a grand for everything required for a Vortec top...that is the deal of the century. Again, point out any heads that will flow like that for the price. If its not good enough then its not worth it, is it???
But you buy the self align ones and they are only good for 1 type of heads and when you have had enough of the little gain from vortecs then you have to buy new rockers again.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
Again, please provide background on "not good enough" and "little gain" given the Vortecs' specs. You keep tossing this completely ridiculous perspective with absolutely no backup at all...and counter to common sense and broad experience.
Last edited by billla; Nov 17, 2011 at 03:50 PM.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 485
Likes: 1
From: Oakville ON
"Thanks Rich! Adam"
Well thanks for your thanks!
Since you want to keep costs down (for now) you will have a car that your wife won't be terrorized by (I know, a little sexist, but the most fun isn't straight-line accel, but zipping through some twisties). Too much more power and you will be needing 17" rims and those tires are $$$$. The stock 15" rims are okay but you can't get a true performance tire for them, so it is easy to get the car going sideways if you get on it too much. Do that once with your wife in the car and she will probably forbid such antics. Oh well .........
But for just sane fun on the street, you will be smiling!!!
Been sideways a few times.
Well thanks for your thanks!
Since you want to keep costs down (for now) you will have a car that your wife won't be terrorized by (I know, a little sexist, but the most fun isn't straight-line accel, but zipping through some twisties). Too much more power and you will be needing 17" rims and those tires are $$$$. The stock 15" rims are okay but you can't get a true performance tire for them, so it is easy to get the car going sideways if you get on it too much. Do that once with your wife in the car and she will probably forbid such antics. Oh well .........
But for just sane fun on the street, you will be smiling!!!
Been sideways a few times.
Last edited by Rich's'78; Nov 17, 2011 at 02:22 PM.
Racer
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 296
Likes: 4
From: London Ontario
I'm with Billa on this one. He's not saying the Vortecs are amazing heads that are going to outflow the high end heads. They are good for budget builds and about the best head that GM made for the SBC. Considering you get OEM quality and a decent street/cruising motor when you're done they are a good value. You won't end up with cheap chinese castings that are full of porosity or bad tolerancing. There's a reason stock car guys use them.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,593
Likes: 103
From: Southern Indiana
Anyways run your vortecs i don't care.
And billa you always revert to " give me paper proof, because im not going to waste time looking on the internet to find some bogus claim to throw at you.
I go from experience of an engine in a car going down the road not a piece of paper from an arm chair bandit!
Go ahead and run them and when you get enough of slowness and want to change to a good head setup you will have to buy all new parts to fit them again, but its your money to waste, send your internet buddies the bill.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
I build about 10 engines a year, mostly in the 1 HP/CID range. I've also done many, many Vortec tops. The pic below is of a relatively mild Vortec-head 355 (I can PM/email the parts list) I built for a buddy's Blazer - not a particularly "bling" engine, and designed for low-end grunt vs. high-RPM HP.
This engine made excellent power and incredible low-end torque, albeit with an HP peak around 4500 RPM as designed.
I am always learning and always interested in others' experience and expertise. I don't ask for "proof", but I do ask for a rational explanation of a perspective. Is that unreasonable? When I give information, it's from direct, personal experience not from the armchair
This engine made excellent power and incredible low-end torque, albeit with an HP peak around 4500 RPM as designed.
I am always learning and always interested in others' experience and expertise. I don't ask for "proof", but I do ask for a rational explanation of a perspective. Is that unreasonable? When I give information, it's from direct, personal experience not from the armchair
Last edited by billla; Nov 17, 2011 at 07:07 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,948
Likes: 72
From: Oxford MA-----You just lost the game!!!!
Thats where it all goes wrong in the first place, running OEM equipment.
Anyways run your vortecs i don't care.
And billa you always revert to " give me paper proof, because im not going to waste time looking on the internet to find some bogus claim to throw at you.
I go from experience of an engine in a car going down the road not a piece of paper from an arm chair bandit!
Go ahead and run them and when you get enough of slowness and want to change to a good head setup you will have to buy all new parts to fit them again, but its your money to waste, send your internet buddies the bill.
Anyways run your vortecs i don't care.
And billa you always revert to " give me paper proof, because im not going to waste time looking on the internet to find some bogus claim to throw at you.
I go from experience of an engine in a car going down the road not a piece of paper from an arm chair bandit!
Go ahead and run them and when you get enough of slowness and want to change to a good head setup you will have to buy all new parts to fit them again, but its your money to waste, send your internet buddies the bill.
I don't understand why GM doesn't just make the same exact head, just out of aluminum, instead of cast iron. They'd sell about a gazillion of 'em.
Scott
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
I don't see anyone saying they're the right solution for every build.
But for the OP's application and many builds up to around 1.1 HP/CID, I have yet to see anyone post anything anywhere near that price point with the same capabilities.
A builder should *always* buy heads that are capable of the power level they're looking to achieve - upgrading after the fact is seldom a good investment. Saying they're less attractive if someone wants more power is like saying a Corvette owner doesn't want a Prius - it's pretty obvious, isn't it?
The E-Streets are a perfect case in point - they use a knock-off of the Vortec chamber but actually flow LESS below .500. They do have a slightly better exhaust flow and so a bit better I/E ratio, and they're aluminum...but that doesn't seem to be much for $300. It's a good choice where an existing aftermarket intake, rockers, valve covers, etc. are already in-place or a bit more lift capacity is required, but apples-to-apples it's about a wash from a power perspective.
See attached for the numbers I worked up for another thread.
But for the OP's application and many builds up to around 1.1 HP/CID, I have yet to see anyone post anything anywhere near that price point with the same capabilities.
A builder should *always* buy heads that are capable of the power level they're looking to achieve - upgrading after the fact is seldom a good investment. Saying they're less attractive if someone wants more power is like saying a Corvette owner doesn't want a Prius - it's pretty obvious, isn't it?
The E-Streets are a perfect case in point - they use a knock-off of the Vortec chamber but actually flow LESS below .500. They do have a slightly better exhaust flow and so a bit better I/E ratio, and they're aluminum...but that doesn't seem to be much for $300. It's a good choice where an existing aftermarket intake, rockers, valve covers, etc. are already in-place or a bit more lift capacity is required, but apples-to-apples it's about a wash from a power perspective.
See attached for the numbers I worked up for another thread.
Last edited by billla; Nov 18, 2011 at 09:53 AM.