Piston Suggestions
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 4
From: Concord Calif
I Think you maybe the one thats ignorant here as the newer engines of today have engine management systems and are all computer cotrolled and it would be pretty hard to hurt any piston or crank in that enviorment
CNCBLOCKS NORTHEAST and Hinkson Automotive Reseach and Development bus. address is at.
18 Mitchell Hill Road
Gorham, Me 04038
My trucking business and Engine shop is at 20 Vista drive.
Have not attacked any one that I know of But myself and few other here beleive in doing things the right way which is the only way as its 2012 not 1960 Things have changed alot over the years.
I deal with a lot of top shops all over the U.S. and Canada and I know what they do for work and what they are using for quality parts!!!!!
Quality parts and quality machine work = a quality engine
Substandard parts and machine work may equal disaster and not run as well as the quality engine.I have seen this to many times
Just look at these forums as they are full of problems mostly because of budget builds and shorty machine work.
CNCBLOCKS NORTHEAST and Hinkson Automotive Reseach and Development bus. address is at.
18 Mitchell Hill Road
Gorham, Me 04038
My trucking business and Engine shop is at 20 Vista drive.
Have not attacked any one that I know of
But myself and few other here beleive in doing things the right way which is the only way as its 2012 not 1960 Things have changed alot over the years. I deal with a lot of top shops all over the U.S. and Canada and I know what they do for work and what they are using for quality parts!!!!!
Quality parts and quality machine work = a quality engine
Substandard parts and machine work may equal disaster and not run as well as the quality engine.I have seen this to many times
Just look at these forums as they are full of problems mostly because of budget builds and shorty machine work.I know an earlier post of mine may not of been very clear, but your statement "Quality parts and quality machine work = a quality engine" is not completely correct! You need three parts for this to be true.
YOU NEED THE CUSTOMER TO FEEL THIS ALSO!!!!! If not happy (and he is the one paying the bills) you only have your personal opinion that your product is good! You may have the customer opinions but you left him out in your statements, "the customer is the real judge"
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,781
Likes: 15
From: Oxford Ohio
AND ANYONE ANY WHERE CAN BUILD CRAP OR A VERY FINE ENGINE regardless of size of the shop and where it is located!!!
I agree
Cast cranks who really uses those any more and HYPER pistons
Sold two last week.
I don't think anyone or at least many who know what killed the engines listed on here. It's a gross assumption to say that it was all from poor parts or workmanship.
I would love to know the ratio of engines on a budget, to $15,000 small block. In this economy I suspect the $15,000 engine business will take a larger hit than the average machine shop. There are a number of operator error failures going on too. Lean one down, over rev. failure to service and just old age to name a few.
This topic gets out of hand everytime it comes up. For a few reasons that are usually the same. I'll leave opinion and engine questions to others from this point forward.
I agree
Cast cranks who really uses those any more and HYPER pistons
Sold two last week.
I don't think anyone or at least many who know what killed the engines listed on here. It's a gross assumption to say that it was all from poor parts or workmanship.
I would love to know the ratio of engines on a budget, to $15,000 small block. In this economy I suspect the $15,000 engine business will take a larger hit than the average machine shop. There are a number of operator error failures going on too. Lean one down, over rev. failure to service and just old age to name a few.
This topic gets out of hand everytime it comes up. For a few reasons that are usually the same. I'll leave opinion and engine questions to others from this point forward.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 3
From: NORTHEAST
AND ANYONE ANY WHERE CAN BUILD CRAP OR A VERY FINE ENGINE regardless of size of the shop and where it is located!!!
I agree
Cast cranks who really uses those any more and HYPER pistons
Sold two last week.
I don't think anyone or at least many who know what killed the engines listed on here. It's a gross assumption to say that it was all from poor parts or workmanship.
I would love to know the ratio of engines on a budget, to $15,000 small block. In this economy I suspect the $15,000 engine business will take a larger hit than the average machine shop. There are a number of operator error failures going on too. Lean one down, over rev. failure to service and just old age to name a few.
This topic gets out of hand everytime it comes up. For a few reasons that are usually the same. I'll leave opinion and engine questions to others from this point forward.
I agree
Cast cranks who really uses those any more and HYPER pistons
Sold two last week.
I don't think anyone or at least many who know what killed the engines listed on here. It's a gross assumption to say that it was all from poor parts or workmanship.
I would love to know the ratio of engines on a budget, to $15,000 small block. In this economy I suspect the $15,000 engine business will take a larger hit than the average machine shop. There are a number of operator error failures going on too. Lean one down, over rev. failure to service and just old age to name a few.
This topic gets out of hand everytime it comes up. For a few reasons that are usually the same. I'll leave opinion and engine questions to others from this point forward.
I have sold more forged pistons to replace broken hper pistons over the few years, But know has never wanted to replace a forged piston with a HYPER piston HMMMMMMMOn the other hand I don't see 15000,00 dollar street builds either
There are a lot of serious guys who want good parts and good workmen ship. Some guys like good parts like Callies, Dart, JE, Mahle, Crower ETC. Believe it or not.
There are some good engine builders on this site I have talked to them on the phone, PM's and emails and these guys are serious about what they build
Just got of the phone with a guy from this site that wanted some advice on a Dart block and build!!!!!
90% of the time my inbox is full I wonder why as I bet its full right now
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 3
From: NORTHEAST
I know an earlier post of mine may not of been very clear, but your statement "Quality parts and quality machine work = a quality engine" is not completely correct! You need three parts for this to be true.
YOU NEED THE CUSTOMER TO FEEL THIS ALSO!!!!! If not happy (and he is the one paying the bills) you only have your personal opinion that your product is good! You may have the customer opinions but you left him out in your statements, "the customer is the real judge"
YOU NEED THE CUSTOMER TO FEEL THIS ALSO!!!!! If not happy (and he is the one paying the bills) you only have your personal opinion that your product is good! You may have the customer opinions but you left him out in your statements, "the customer is the real judge"
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 943
Likes: 73
I need a quick lesson on pistons. I am meeting with my engine builder in the morning to discuss my options with new pistons. So I need some recommendations and a quick lesson on what I want and what I want to ask for..
My engine was bored .030 over and he just honed it. I had hyper pistons there from an unknown manufacturer. Which is why he suggests new pistons..
So can anyone give me a quick lesson on what I want? I have read some issues people have had issues with Keith Black Hyper pistons cracking. I dont want to go broke with something expensive like Ross. Are there better "models" of Keith Black's to choose from?
I want to stay around 9.5:1 CR, but do not have my head purchased yet. Most likely a 64cc chamber.
Thanks
My engine was bored .030 over and he just honed it. I had hyper pistons there from an unknown manufacturer. Which is why he suggests new pistons..
So can anyone give me a quick lesson on what I want? I have read some issues people have had issues with Keith Black Hyper pistons cracking. I dont want to go broke with something expensive like Ross. Are there better "models" of Keith Black's to choose from?
I want to stay around 9.5:1 CR, but do not have my head purchased yet. Most likely a 64cc chamber.
Thanks
So, after the Wild West, don't park your guns at the door atmosphere here, did you decide on a piston yet?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,353
Likes: 72
From: Graceland in a Not Correctly Restored Stingray
To a point. The power window for good hyper pistons is narrow. I would say 300-400 hp in a small block with a very safe A/F ratio and conservative DCR and timing. They don't like any detonation. A low expansion forged would be my choice for almost any street performance build. A regular forged piston I would reserve for a race only engine. JMHOI'd say we're pretty much on the same page here. When I can get back on my 427 build I'll be ordering a set of custom JE 4032's myself.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
The best machining eguipment would be expensive to buy maintain and replace. Cost of someone thats really good at using the equipment.
Better be charging some money to keep all this going.
If i brought some one some crap cast this and that and the shop would build it for me that tells me they care nothing about there reputation as a machinest or finished assembled product.
When the crap parts come apart first thing there going to do get on some forum say it was my fault. They would be partually be right because i was stupid enough to build it with the sub standard crap parts in the first place.
Profesional is just a word for anyone that works for money you do that as your profession to make money. Every machine shop regardless of how bad or good are profesionals they do it for a living.
Better be charging some money to keep all this going.
If i brought some one some crap cast this and that and the shop would build it for me that tells me they care nothing about there reputation as a machinest or finished assembled product.
When the crap parts come apart first thing there going to do get on some forum say it was my fault. They would be partually be right because i was stupid enough to build it with the sub standard crap parts in the first place.
Profesional is just a word for anyone that works for money you do that as your profession to make money. Every machine shop regardless of how bad or good are profesionals they do it for a living.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Feb 28, 2012 at 01:04 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 3
From: NORTHEAST
The best machining eguipment would be expensive to buy maintain and replace. Cost of someone thats really good at using the equipment.
Better be charging some money to keep all this going.
If i brought some one some crap cast this and that and the shop would build it for me that tells me they care nothing about there reputation as a machinest or finished assembled product.
When the crap parts come apart first thing there going to do get on some forum say it was my fault. They would be partually be right because i was stupid enough to build it with the sub standard crap parts in the first place.
Profesional is just a word for anyone that works for money you do that as your profession to make money. Every machine shop regardless of how bad or good are profesionals they do it for a living.
Better be charging some money to keep all this going.
If i brought some one some crap cast this and that and the shop would build it for me that tells me they care nothing about there reputation as a machinest or finished assembled product.
When the crap parts come apart first thing there going to do get on some forum say it was my fault. They would be partually be right because i was stupid enough to build it with the sub standard crap parts in the first place.
Profesional is just a word for anyone that works for money you do that as your profession to make money. Every machine shop regardless of how bad or good are profesionals they do it for a living.
Thing is to buy equipment that takes the place of 3 or 4 employees thats how you make money.
CNC machines are never late for work
Do what you tell them.
Never come in drunk
They don't ake a 2 hour shyt on your time
Never need any benifits.
Shops that use this type equipment are making money if they have plenty of work
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 3
From: NORTHEAST
Seeing Hendrick Motorsports is still using them for the cylinder honig because they tried the diamond honing methods and with their research found they had better results using the 616 cylinder king.I can convert my Sunnen 616 to a diamond hone head at at any time I have a shop near me that has the Rottler and I am not very impressed with what it does.
A shop that has a machine like this can get rid of the boring bars, Lifter bore tooling, deck surfacing equipment, Bridgeports, Even line boring quipment, Get rid of fixturing equipment as well.
Bennifits are you can blue print machine blocks or machine anything that fits in a CNC machine, You can Probe a block out for all locations most CNC machines won't do this process.
Last edited by BLOCKMAN; Feb 28, 2012 at 12:41 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 4
From: Concord Calif
No my Sunnen is not junk by any means Seeing Hendrick Motorsports is still using them for the cylinder honig because they tried the diamond honing methods and with their research found they had better results using the 616 cylinder king.
I can convert my Sunnen 616 to a diamond hone head at at any time I have a shop near me that has the Rottler and I am not very impressed with what it does.
Seeing Hendrick Motorsports is still using them for the cylinder honig because they tried the diamond honing methods and with their research found they had better results using the 616 cylinder king.I can convert my Sunnen 616 to a diamond hone head at at any time I have a shop near me that has the Rottler and I am not very impressed with what it does.
I use CV616 also and like it much better than the Rottler. I believe you have much better control with CV. One issue and I'm sure you know as you use one is that the CV load gage is something that varies based on the cylinder wall strength. I run mine a bit faster and the load gage will flash tight at the bottom when in fact it is at the top. No big deal but the point is it a variable from block to block and cylinder to cylinder and CNC type machines don't normally give you the control to deal with this as the Sunnen does. But it does take much more "touch" to produce a nice cylinder than a CNC type or even the CV machine if no one pays attention and just does things by a book!!!!
The Diamond does rip out alot of material but that is for a stock engine type shop. I use a KwickWay bar and table with an indexer attached then the CV616 to hone with the deck plates attached, I usually have the plates on for the boring also.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 95
I would think it would cost more money to keep the old junk going!!
Thing is to buy equipment that takes the place of 3 or 4 employees thats how you make money.
CNC machines are never late for work
Do what you tell them.
Never come in drunk
They don't ake a 2 hour shyt on your time
Never need any benifits.
Shops that use this type equipment are making money if they have plenty of work
Thing is to buy equipment that takes the place of 3 or 4 employees thats how you make money.
CNC machines are never late for work
Do what you tell them.
Never come in drunk
They don't ake a 2 hour shyt on your time
Never need any benifits.
Shops that use this type equipment are making money if they have plenty of work
Have learned a little from a shop forman in a machine shop many yrs ago when they had laughable equipment to work with compaired to today.
Of course customers need to be respected without them you are out of business just a matter of time.
But today with the internet armed with some two bit punks non knowledge i'm sure they try to tell you how machining works.
I can see how it would be very hard to not get cranky lol.
Its unfortunate as has always been the case there are crooks out there that make other places look bad by what they have done.
The recent poster had the engine failure was screwed over by a sharlinton.
I have a CDL and endorsement on it to drive a bus many yrs behind the wheel without an accident running in heavy traffic. Statically they say 75 percent of the time the car caused the accident. When an 80,000 lb or heavier rig runs over someones car with a famly in it statically no longer matters its sickening to see. My CDL say's i'm a profesional driver. But others have the same thing written on there license. Seen many that should not be given a license to drive a shopping cart through the grocery store.
Last edited by Little Mouse; Feb 28, 2012 at 05:08 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 65
From: Seattle WA
St. Jude Donor '14
A shop that has a machine like this can get rid of the boring bars, Lifter bore tooling, deck surfacing equipment, Bridgeports, Even line boring quipment, Get rid of fixturing equipment as well.
Bennifits are you can blue print machine blocks or machine anything that fits in a CNC machine, You can Probe a block out for all locations most CNC machines won't do this process.
Bennifits are you can blue print machine blocks or machine anything that fits in a CNC machine, You can Probe a block out for all locations most CNC machines won't do this process.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 3
From: NORTHEAST
This is my machine and I have a free bay to work out of, Does not cost me a dime. The owner and his son treat my very good.
Any Questions call RMC they will verify who owns that HAAS 4-axis CNC machining center.
I did not lighten the block thats in my machine if thats what your asking.
Any Questions call RMC they will verify who owns that HAAS 4-axis CNC machining center.
I did not lighten the block thats in my machine if thats what your asking.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
From: Easton pennsylvania
Well, I had a friend of mine who knows the engine shop I am using. He called and talked things over with Keith. So after all this discussion, I kept the pistons I had in the car. I am just going to re-ring the hypers that I have and work from there. I really hope I am not making a mistake. The shop said that the ones that came out seem to be in fine shape, but their unknown history is why they recommended going new.. But he said there nothing wrong with reusing what I have. He is very familiar with gap issues on hypers leading to failures and will do his very best to get everything right.
In the end, Billla hit it on the head. Everybody has their on recipe....
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 943
Likes: 73
I had no idea that the topic was going to get so heated..
Well, I had a friend of mine who knows the engine shop I am using. He called and talked things over with Keith. So after all this discussion, I kept the pistons I had in the car. I am just going to re-ring the hypers that I have and work from there. I really hope I am not making a mistake. The shop said that the ones that came out seem to be in fine shape, but their unknown history is why they recommended going new.. But he said there nothing wrong with reusing what I have. He is very familiar with gap issues on hypers leading to failures and will do his very best to get everything right.
In the end, Billla hit it on the head. Everybody has their on recipe....
Well, I had a friend of mine who knows the engine shop I am using. He called and talked things over with Keith. So after all this discussion, I kept the pistons I had in the car. I am just going to re-ring the hypers that I have and work from there. I really hope I am not making a mistake. The shop said that the ones that came out seem to be in fine shape, but their unknown history is why they recommended going new.. But he said there nothing wrong with reusing what I have. He is very familiar with gap issues on hypers leading to failures and will do his very best to get everything right.
In the end, Billla hit it on the head. Everybody has their on recipe....
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
If the bore is within tolerance for piston to wall clearance after honing for new rings that is fine. I would still deck the block before honing to even up the piston to deck measurements and use a torque plate for honing.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,682
Likes: 3
From: League City TX
Do you know how far? Will you be able to correct your quench distance without severely decking your block?
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
From: Easton pennsylvania
Yeah, he is still going to deck it. He said after everything is back together we should be just shy of what he would consider excellent. So we are in the ballpark.