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Old Mar 26, 2012 | 09:28 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by 63mako
I bet you have a timing/ advance issue and/or a vacuum leak. Quit hiring morons and do it yourself. Put the 670 street avenger on it, it is the perfect carb for your build and should be close to right on out of the box, check for any vacuum leaks and use this info. Make sure your dwell is right. You will need a dwell meter and timing light. Make sure your mech advance plate works freely and buy a dist spring (recurve) kit for under $10. BTW my bone stock 72 with an L48, auto, 3.08 gear would roast the tires for 1/2 block from a dead stop. It is all about the tune.

http://www.lbfun.com/warehouse/tech_...t%20Timing.pdf

http://www.lbfun.com/warehouse/tech_...ance_Specs.pdf
ok i put the 670 back on and installed a light spring for secs and it is running much better but not what id hope for.... as for the timeing i have the vac disconected and have it lockt at 35 advanced at 3k is this not a good idia??
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Old Mar 26, 2012 | 09:32 PM
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Lars just posted a carb dyno comparison, on another site, between one of his massaged Q- Jets and one of his massaged Hollys.

Interesting reading, if you trust Lars. I do!
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Old Mar 26, 2012 | 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dvecustomvettes
i have the vac disconected and have it lockt at 35 advanced at 3k is this not a good idia??
NO.
With vacuum disconnected, move timing up to the top of the timing tab, hook vacuum advance up to full manifold vacuum and adjust idle back down to maybe 800 in gear with that cam.
Drive and see if it runs better?

Last edited by Tim H; Mar 27, 2012 at 07:09 AM.
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Old Mar 26, 2012 | 10:52 PM
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i think the problem is his "experts"have been setting things to stock specs. all these clowns know now days is to put a chip or tuner in it. I'm the tuner i put in my car.
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 01:19 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Tim H
NO.
With vacuum disconnected, move timing up to the top of the timing tab, hood vacuum advance up to full manifold vacuum and adjust idle back down to maybe 800 in gear with that cam.
Drive and see if it runs better?
i was told your suposed to hook vac from advanc to the carb were it only pulls vac when you hit the throttle.... if i go rite off the manny wont that be advanced even at idle???? what wuold be the difrence from what i haver now..
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 06:49 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by dvecustomvettes
i was told your suposed to hook vac from advanc to the carb were it only pulls vac when you hit the throttle.... if i go rite off the manny wont that be advanced even at idle???? what wuold be the difrence from what i haver now..
There was a similar thread here a few days ago. Here is part of it explaining why advance is benficial at idle.

Here is a link to the complete thread.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-g...m-advance.html

TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

John Hinckley


The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 07:10 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by dvecustomvettes
i was told your suposed to hook vac from advanc to the carb were it only pulls vac when you hit the throttle.... if i go rite off the manny wont that be advanced even at idle???? what wuold be the difrence from what i haver now..
Beleive me, just do it the way I said and see how it runs.
"Locking" the timing at 35, I really don't know about that but put it back so it swings open and closed like stock.
Its the right way.

Last edited by Tim H; Mar 27, 2012 at 07:15 AM.
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 08:32 AM
  #28  
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Are you setting it up for the track or street ? My last ride was built like a race car and it was always a fight to keep nice street manners. It's tough to get both dialed in at the same time....
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 08:35 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Old Timer II
GOOD ADVICE...

Does your tuner involve an Oxygen Sensor ?
The air/fuel gauges all use oxygen sensors. The cheaper units use an old style sensor that only sends an electric signal of zero to about one volt. The so called wide ratio oxygen sensors generate a signal of zero to almost five volts. The dash gauge is calibrated to interpret the voltage as the air/fuel ratio. Since the slope of the current generated by the wide ratio gauge is "longer", the readings can be more accurate.
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by noonie
There was a similar thread here a few days ago. Here is part of it explaining why advance is benficial at idle.

Here is a link to the complete thread.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-g...m-advance.html
Right on!

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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 08:46 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by boltnut
cam degree MUST be checked. the dots have been PROVEN to be off on some timing sets....JMO
Nice photo. I'm sure your wife was so pleased..............
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 03:48 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Tim H
Beleive me, just do it the way I said and see how it runs.
"Locking" the timing at 35, I really don't know about that but put it back so it swings open and closed like stock.
Its the right way.
Yeah, I have never heard of anybody "locking" the timing, just what do you mean by that? Oh, and dude, I am really getting a kick out of those crazy misspellings, keep doing it! LOL!!! I'm waiting to see some backward letters next!!


Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 08:21 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by dvecustomvettes
ok i put the 670 back on and installed a light spring for secs and it is running much better but not what id hope for.... as for the timeing i have the vac disconected and have it lockt at 35 advanced at 3k is this not a good idia??
Locked out timing is for racing only. Follow the links I posted for performance timing curve and get the correct vacuum can. Hook the vacuum advance can to the base of the carb not the ported vacuum. The only reason GM did that was for emissions. It reduces performance. With correct timing curve the performance increase will be at the bootom end where yours is soggy. Leave the carb alone until your distributor curve is correct then tune the carb.
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 09:25 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by scottyp99
Yeah, I have never heard of anybody "locking" the timing, just what do you mean by that? Oh, and dude, I am really getting a kick out of those crazy misspellings, keep doing it! LOL!!! I'm waiting to see some backward letters next!!


Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
im shore when i pull up to car shows and the feild runns to my car they wont be worryd about my spelling.. infact over 300 custom cars i have built and ownd over 30 years with hundreds of awords can you beleave it ..no one was worried about my spelling ..that amazes me that theres still idiots out there like you .. i may not build my motors but i have unlimited funds to buy what i wont ..hows your bank account...lol..i come on here time to time and allways theres a guy that complains about spelling..well heres my insite on this..if you are over 45 years old and you can typ and spell like a wiz than your on the comp to long i spend my time building bad *** cars and enjoying all 36 of my own cars and bikes so do the world a fovor and take that to the **** site you wach all day ....your a lame *** dude probebly dont have any car skills what so ever and ya even i can google the answeres im getting here not from all but most have sent me the same thing i google..im not looking for the book man im looking for hands on guys like me that actully get down and dirty and trial and error guys that spent 40 years on the track or garoge not no snot nose wanna be car guy....your that lame dude and your a fake .........
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 09:33 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by scottyp99
Yeah, I have never heard of anybody "locking" the timing, just what do you mean by that? Oh, and dude, I am really getting a kick out of those crazy misspellings, keep doing it! LOL!!! I'm waiting to see some backward letters next!!


Keep the shiny side up!
Scott
locking the timeing dude your a car guy and never hurd of that....lol..you are funny...lets see you disconect the advance to the distributor set the timeing lite to 35 degrees if you have a didgital one that is..probly not its the moor expensive one..@#$%^&*..then rev the car to 3k as 3k is enuff for the motor to be at full timing turn the distributor to reach the 35 you set on the lite then lock it down..chevy likes 35 even 42 advance on the timing ......... just out of curiosity do you work at pep boys ????????????????????????
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 09:35 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by dvecustomvettes
im shore when i pull up to car shows and the feild runns to my car they wont be worryd about my spelling.. infact over 300 custom cars i have built and ownd over 30 years with hundreds of awords can you beleave it ..no one was worried about my spelling ..that amazes me that theres still idiots out there like you .. i may not build my motors but i have unlimited funds to buy what i wont ..hows your bank account...lol..i come on here time to time and allways theres a guy that complains about spelling..well heres my insite on this..if you are over 45 years old and you can typ and spell like a wiz than your on the comp to long i spend my time building bad *** cars and enjoying all 36 of my own cars and bikes so do the world a fovor and take that to the **** site you wach all day ....your a lame *** dude probebly dont have any car skills what so ever and ya even i can google the answeres im getting here not from all but most have sent me the same thing i google..im not looking for the book man im looking for hands on guys like me that actully get down and dirty and trial and error guys that spent 40 years on the track or garoge not no snot nose wanna be car guy....your that lame dude and your a fake .........
Hey I got a great idea for ya, buy one more car to use up all your time and don't come back on here at all!
You must be using a Comadore 64 computer without spell check because if your so rich and talented it sure didn't come from blue blood schooling!

Last edited by Tim H; Mar 27, 2012 at 09:40 PM.
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 09:40 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Tim H
Hey I got a great idea for ya, buy one more car to use up all your time and don't come back on here at all!
You must be using a Comadore 64 computer without spell check because if your so rich and talented it sure didn't come from blue blood schooling!
it must be getting late the haters are comming out to thro there 2 cents in ..whats amatter no gas in your car.......or the idiot club is all together tonite watching ****.!@#$%^&*()_
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 09:54 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Tim H
Hey I got a great idea for ya, buy one more car to use up all your time and don't come back on here at all!
You must be using a Comadore 64 computer without spell check because if your so rich and talented it sure didn't come from blue blood schooling!
you idiots crack me up....lol..take alook at the replys i got..there all guys telling me about someone elses post..lol..your all a bunch of idiots googling shyt..lmao...you guys are way to much funn..is there any one on this site that actully builds cars .???? i meen im only a [holbert] you guys may of hurd that name ..you no number 14 car..na i didnt think so........it was just a lil ol porsche.......besides having andretti, shelby..and a cupple moor guys no one ever hurd of at my familys shop back in the race days didnt help out with my spelling ether.. now id love to sit here and talk shyt with you loosers but im shore you got moor googling to do..as for me ima take my ls6 70ss out for a spin and pick up my 25 year old date..i meen i am only 43 ...ya think its the car???or the house cars bikes boat.[with ls7 ] ya no ima ask her tonite just befor i tell her to strip down ....keep up to speed and dont forget NO MEANS NO.....
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 10:46 PM
  #39  
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Do you really have to give this guy such a hard time over his spelling? How is that helping him with the technical issues he's having?
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Old Mar 27, 2012 | 11:00 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by mrmagrath
Do you really have to give this guy such a hard time over his spelling? How is that helping him with the technical issues he's having?
He don't have any car problems, his problem is he thinks hes and expert at.................. well nothing and knows it.
You know the old saying " you can't fix stupid" well he can't spell it!

Last edited by Tim H; Mar 27, 2012 at 11:05 PM.
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