I was looking at a motor which had a set of heads I have not heard of.

Wondered if anyone here had some background, good, bad, decent for a street motor and possibly used price?

He tells me they are pontiac racing div for smallblock chevy
240cc int runner and just over 210 exh

Thanks

 

try pontiac forums, they're pretty active

 

The Trans Am series had a cubic inch limit of five liters, also known as 305 cid. The T/A's were all equipped with the 6.6 liter 400 cid Pontiac engine. The sports car purists magazines berated Pontiac for the 'sacrilege' of naming their newest pony car after the SCCA race series in which the car didn't qualify to compete. This due to the engine displacement being too large. Jerry Titus and Terry Goodsall of T/G Racing found a loophole in the rule book and used a '69 302 Z-28 engine and campaigned the T/A as a "Canadian" Firebird. The Canadian Firebirds did have the option of being equipped with the 302 engine. Racing aside, all U.S. built T/A's for '69 came with one of the two 400 cid Ram Air engine choices. The transmission that came as standard equipment was the 3 speed manual, with the 4 speed manual and Turbo Hydro Matic 3 speed automatic available as extra cost options. Trans Am color options for 1969 consisted of one choice - Cameo white with two full length Lucerne Blue racing stripes. The blue treatment was carried over covering the rear tail light panel as well.


http://www.firebirdnation.com/forums...ory-and-facts/

 

Not sure if it is means anything but they are alum and are on a 434 raised cam dart block sbc, just something I have not seen before or can find any info on.

 

They are a raised runner GM produced aluminum head. I knew a guy that ran them on a 350 that was putting out crazy numbers like 600 HP.

 

Here they are. http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/perform...CATID=671.html

 

Yep Mako those are the heads, he is quoting 700hp out of this motor.

I was thinking it might be a decent buy but it is too extreme for my wants which means tearing it apart and trying to sell off what I dont want, not sure i am into that.

I have a feeling the heads and matched Pontiac intake would be wrong for my appliction let alone fit under the hood.

Thanks for the info.

 

Maybe I misunderstood what I read (above), but I believe those heads match up with a Chevy SB Gen I block and intake manifold.

 

They bolt on but the intake runners are raised a lot and huge. Need a matching intake for them to work correctly.

 

they were built for the chevy small block, they were never intended for any other use

 

Which they are on a SBC dart iron eagle at 434 actually, but for my wants I would have to sell of the heads, intake, cam as the specs on this motor seems very extreme.

I guess I could do that but my concern is no one would want to purchase it as it seems very non street friendly equipment?

 

There ya' go...

 

Right I think they were available in 23 degree and 15 or 18 degree. As far as selling them there is a market for them. Anything that can make 6-700 hp out of 350 CI is a saleable item. Matching heads and intake has good value to someone.

 

Awfully large head to be using imo..

Could probably get more feedback from many using/used this head at speedtalk.com they could give more info on them. Go to "Engine Tech" and post up. Some super knowledgable guys on there.

 

Thanks for the link I may head over there and check it out.

Really it comes down to his price which even his asking price is really good but it means some work for me.

 

Ok this is a pretty common 23* head from back in the day....

Commonly refered to as the Pontiac "867" - as those are the last 3 digits of the casting number.

Specifically these cyl heads heyday was about 1988-1992... So they are OLD AS HELL and probally "well used"....

In case you don't speak racer lingo that means USED UP junk by now... I have a few sets of these (mostly old CUP take off's) laying around the shop and all of mine are cracked junk that require more work to fix than they are worth.

They were offered as standard 23* Low Port and a few years later as a 23* Raised Port (Raised Runner) cyl heads. There is a rolled deck 15* Pontiac head but it is a totally different casting (that one is based on the GM 615 casting).

Be aware the 867's were often were bought as raw castings and serious engine builders of the day often machined them on different valve centerlines and port arrangements to meet whatever rules packages of the class they were running.... So whatever your looking at could be anything and if you don't know how to measure the centerlines you could get stuck with some very expensive paperweights....

MOST as delived machined from GM have 60/40 valve spacing, use a shaft system w/.550 offset intake rocker (if you run a 7/16 pushrod you will have to use .180 offset lifters or gind the **** out of the lower part of the intake runner's exterior casting).

There was also a Cheverlot Bowtie based on the same casting but didn't have the Pontiac logo between the exhaust runners. Both were cast by BRODIX for GM and served as the basis for the 11X Raised Runner 23* cyl head they sell to this day.

The last 867 engine built in our shop was in about 1996 and it was 380 inches for a bracket drag car and as I remember it made about 720HP on (1) 4150 and ran high 5's in a 2800lb door car (1/8th mile).

My advice to anyone looking at a set of 867's today is: Look at something else. They are old, outdated and expensive to build/maintain. There are far better choices for the same $$$.
Will

 

well you guys are great lots of information here.

I may have be able to get it without the top end so for 3K a forged bottom lunati with diamond pistons and a dart iron eagle block may be worth it.

That being said it has 15 passes on it any way to easily check the condition of the short block so I don't get scammed?

Thanks

 

Not without taking it apart and inspecting/measuring everything.

Seems awfully cheap.... That Dart block alone is almost $2800 my cost.... That translates to almost 3K racer net.....

Not to mention it has to be high compression to make anwhere near 700hp with those heads so that makes the short block not very street friendly either.... at least without a piston change....

Why don't you tell everyone what you hope to accomplish with your car and we could give you some pointers on what to buy and what it would cost.....

Buying someone elses used stuff and trying to adapt it, rarley works out as well as building to suit your goals the first time.
Will

 

This story is almost all completely false.

To start with, the series was started in 1966. At the time, the Trans-Am rules were based on the SCCA A Sedan rules, which limited engine displacement to 5 liters, as was stated. Initially, only the Mustang (289), the Barracuda (273) and the Dodge Dart (273), met the 5 liter limit. In 67, Chevrolet introduced the 302 powered Z28, specifically to compete in the Trans-Am Series.

Pontiac, and some devoted Pontiac racers, wanted very much to participate in the Trans-Am. Unfortunately, the only V8's the Firebird was available with were a 350 and a 400. SCCA rules required that the car raced with a factory available, production engine and in it's original displacement. The rules prohibited de-stroking a larger engine, to meet the 305 limit.

To make the Firebird eligible to compete in the Trans-Am in 68, some very enterprising Pontiac employees, "created" paperwork to submit to the SCCA saying that the Firebird was available in Canada, with a Chevy 302. This was a complete lie, as the 302 was never offered in a Firebird, in the US or Canada. About half way through the 68 season, the SCCA became aware that the Firebird was not available with a Chevy 302. Apparently, people had tried to buy 302 Firebirds, only to find that they didn't exist. Since the 302 Firebirds were already competing, the SCCA decided to allow them to run for the rest of the year. Pontiac was told that they would not be allowed to race 69 Firebirds with Chevy 302's though. Since they were already considered "legal", 68 Firebird's were grandfathered, and were allowed to race again in 69.

At that point, Pontiac started to develop a Ram Air IV based 303 cubic inch engine, to compete in the series in 69. To go along with the new 303 engine, Pontiac entered into an agreement with the SCCA, to name the car the Trans-Am, and pay the SCCA a royalty of $5 per car.

Pontiac ran into trouble in developing the 303, which delayed it's introduction. Before the 303 ever was produced, the SCCA announced that the rules would be changed for 1970, to allow racers to de-stroke larger displacement engines, to meet the 5 liter/305 limit. Since Pontiac had already announced that they were going to build the Trans-Am and there was now no need to spend the time and money to continue to develop a 303 with the season half over, they put the TA into production with the 400, and postponed the cars entry into the series until 1970. The Pontiac teams continued to race their 302 powered 68's, in the series in 69, but no 69 TA's ever raced in the series.

For 1970, the redesigned Firebird Trans-Am, raced in the series using the now legal de-stroked 400. Chrysler joined the series with Barracudas and Challengers with de-stroked 340's. Since they coulde now legally race de-stroked versions of larger engines, Chevrolet dropped the 302, in favor of the larger 350 LT-1, and Ford replaced the Boss 302 with the Boss 351.

Unfortunately, Jerry Titus, Pontiac's main entrant in the Trans-Am. was killed in an accident at Road America, part way through the year. With Titus' death, Pontiac's effort in the Series died too.

The heads that the OP was inquiring about, had nothing to do with the 302 powered Firebirds, of the 68-69 Trans-Am.

Okay, the history lesson's over.

 

Wow good info,
So how did that 303 engine run?
Curious compared to a Chevy 302.