those reading are after running the vette for 20 min down the freeway.... those readings are running at about 50mph.

the 69* reading is in the bowl at the same time the 111* is out side at 50mph.

the 65* in in the garage cold before test.

air from open element units pick up air right where i have the sensor,,, not on top of the unit



And I did the same with a pressure differential gauge, with a +.2 psi at 100mph

 

It took the 26,000 miles over 13 years for my 84 to go from 1 quart every 3,000 miles to 1 quart every 500 miles.... I ran a k&n during that whole time.... it doesn't matter how little I drive it if the filter doesn't filter as well its a trade off of trading 4-6 HP at WOT for short engine life. Your right though we are all entitled to our own opinions.

 

I had that 290 HP crate engine in my 88 pickup and it was a great engine. It does have a factory cam...it's called the modified "Duntov" cam. Nice little lope.

 

Hmmm, that is very interesting info. augiedoggy. I have a K&N filter in my 2004 Lexus RX330 and it has been in there for more than 50,000 miles as a daily driver. I don't use a drop more oil than the day I bought the vehicle. I think maybe your problem with oil consumption in your vehicle was affected by more than just the K&N filter. As mentioned it is JMHO.

 

Thanks for the post. I understand the test case and find it interesting. Im not on the "Mythbusters" bandwagon - so, dont get me wrong about the CAI. :-)

Did you perform the same test using the stock air cleaner assembly.

 

Please allow me to disagree. Anything that allows the engine to process more air and gasoline per unit of time will improve the power. Flow testing by David Visard (years ago) showed that a K&N was much less restrictive than a paper filter. As a matter of fact, he also discovered that Motorcraft makes the best flowing paper filters.
I have a old Crown Vic as a DD. Stock hosepower is something like 210. The Mercury Marauder of the same vintage has the same engine, but has an air cleaner element/induction box that is probably twice the size of the one in my Ford, and makes about 300HP.

 

it very well could have been and That why I stated that I wondered if the two were related... The thing is common sense would dictate that to flow that much better it needs to be that much more pourous which means its gonna filter less.
I currents use spectre cotton type filters in three of my rides which are basically the same thing but do so bacause none of them have the stock air intakes or cleaner assemblies to begin with and the new assemblies came with the elements I have been monitoring these very closely to make sure the cotton isn't plugged or disinigrating as I,very seen others do. My daily driver uses a stock paper element.

 

Read about density altitude and it's effects on performance.
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gsla...%20branded.pdf

Disreguarding humidity and barometric pressure and looking only at temperature look up 50 degrees vs 110 degrees and it's effect on density altitude.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...QEwAg&dur=2966

If your live at 1000 feet above sea level and have a cold air intake let's assume no heating of the air on it's way to the carb for a CAI just to keep things consistant.
At 50 degrees this puts the density altitude at the carb at about 700 feet above sea level. This is where the engine thinks it's at based on temperature.
Now look up 110 degrees (a temperature easily reached under the hood of an operating C3).
At 110 the density altitude is 4,600 feet. A significant difference in the perceived altitude of operation by the engine. So the air is far less dense due to the heat. Less air = less fuel = less power potential.
To convert this to HP this formula can be applied.

HP loss= elevation X .03 X HP@ seal level/1000

First example at 50 degrees and 700 ft density alt.

HP loss=700X.03X350 HP @ sea level/1000 (just picked 350 HP for example)
This gives us a loss of 7.35 HP from a sea level rating of 350 HP or 342.65 HP a 2.1% loss of power from sea level.
In our second scenario of 110 degrees and a density alt of 4,600 feet we get this;
HP loss = 4,600X.03X350 HP @ sea level/1000 which gives us a loss of 48.3 HP or now 301.7 HP. This is a 13.8% loss of power.

So those of you who doubt 20 to 30 hp loss would be correct, it could be even more.
Keep in mind when an engine is dyno rated it is corrected to sea level at standard atmospheric conditions.

 

Sorry, I don't have the money to shell out for a dyno session, but if somebody want to pay for it, I'd be happy to do a comparison.

All I know is that the hood/ intake is the only modification that I've made recently and the difference from before is very noticeable, better throttle response, less hesitation, and pulls harder during wot. My engine puts out about 500hp.

While monitoring the temperature sensors, when I nail the throttle, with close to 50 degree cooler temps going into the intake than what is in the engine bay, the temperatures steadily rise in the engine bay, and steadily lower going into the air cleaner from the cold air chamber. To me it shows not only cooler air into the engine, but also a positive air flow coming into the air chamber feeding the engine. Much better than the under the hood open air cleaner that I had before.

Anybody notice a difference in performance when they drive their vette on a 100+ degree day, compared to a 50 degree day?

 

Yep, butt dyno confirms math dyno. Some of us don't even have access to a real dyno.

 

And many people do...there are two independant things being discussed here but as far as the k&n filter goes... If you Google it you,all find that most people saw numbers closer to 0 to 12hp range by changing air filter setups most gained below 5.... honestly look at the difference between running no filter at all on an unenclosed engine and a filter
I'm going to get blasted for saying this but there are a lot of forums out there some seem to deal more in misconception and perception and some actually have a lot of real experience and fact finding testing done and posted by members while I applaud the member here for making a very nice modified cold air intake I believe he is greatly mistaken on his percieved HP gains. If you don't believe me look at the mustang or ls1 or hotrodders forums.... there are countless threads on this where people with time and dyno access have shown the proof and the dyno doesn't lie... k&n filters have been tested in labs and have been shown to be inferior at keeping the dust out that wears out cylinder walls.... does it destroy everyone's engines no but for the 1-2 HP the filter provides its not really worth it "IMHO"

Cold air intakes are great in theory but because of other limitations do not have 20-30 HP gains on a stock engine or any engine that had a intake / filter designed to keep up with the cfm flow of the Carb and engine. Go ahead Google " dyno results cai vs" and you'll see most don't see any change other than the normal dyno pull variances you can get without changing anything... now look at the positive CAI dyno results..... now factor out each one thats trying to market something...

I realize there may be a lot of people here with more important things in their lives than really taking the time to research something before believing it as gospel but if it were really that easy.... well you better jump on that oceanfront property in Utah.
Hold a k&n filter up to a light bulb.... it doesn't take much to see how they let so much dirt through.... lots of big holes...

 

I'm confused but hey at 60, every day is a new day so here goes. How does a stock twin snorklel air cleaner draw cold air on a dyno when the car is sitting still? There would seem to be a lack of any excess air at this point. What am I missing?

 

Cold air intake and forced induction are two different things..cold air intakes use cooler air from outside of the engine compartment and forced induction system try to push air into the intake at higher speeds which can often have negative effects on tuning consistency since the a/f ratio is always changing depending on speed vs rpms ( poor mans turbo)... but even the real world results on these vary quite a bit.... if they worked that well reliably they would be on all cars especially performance cars instead of mostly being non functional cosmetic intakes on many rides.. again they help but they don't give you 20-30 just by bolting them on. From what I read this was one of the reasons cowl induction was often chosen instead. It offered a positive indirect cooler air source that wasn't as strong and was More consistant
In any case they would be tested on the track and not the dyno.... again questions have bee asked and results tested.... Google can be great for this stuff.

 

Augie,
Thanks for taking the time to set me straight. Makes sense now.

 

if you want 3-5 hp buy a k and n filter if you want your motor to last buy a good paper filter.you can have your oil tested for less than $50.00 .they will tell you what you need to know .compare with k+n then compare with a paper filter .if a FILTER did give me 20 hp more, I still would rather protect my motor .

 

Read this Vizard does a good job explaining how a K&N works vs the paper element.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OAw...vizard&f=false

 

Good stuff. Logic tells us that a filter that passes air more easily has to have bigger holes and thus also passes more bad stuff - dust & dirt.

Pete

 

My experience is the same. My wife 2008 mercury Milan has 119000 miles on it with a K&N filter. I use 0w-30 oil and it does not use a drop between 10,000 mile oil changes with filter change at 5000 miles. I live on a gravel driveway and regularly drive gravel roads.
I wouldn't trust a K&N to my dirt bike, I wouldn't trust a paper element for that use either, but for a daily driver or road driven vehicle it works just fine with no ill effects thus far.

 

Sorry guys, I don't buy the value of any of these cold air intakes. If it gains 30-50 HP, which if a dyno says it does, then I don't dispute. But, my guess it would a gain a full throttle, which means absolutely nothing to a guy who drives a car on the streets at legal speeds. I suppose if I had my Vette to race, it would matter. And the price anyone pays for these cold air intakes is the horrendous way in which it contaminates the classic look of a Chevy 350, like it was in the 60's - 70's. If I wanted a 2014 Corvette, I would have bought one, but I like my C3, just the way it is.

 

COOL AIR EQUALS POWER
By C.J. Baker



The Banks Super Scoop, as shown on this Ford V-10 gasoline engine, provides both cool air and a mild ram-air affect. The Super Scoop also incorporates a water drain to separate any rainwater from the airflow entering the scoop.

Most people know that engines make more power when the inlet air is cooler. Let's take a look at why this is true - at least in most applications. We'll also tell you right up front that this article might leave you with more questions than answers. Then again, you might be the one that provides the additional answers and takes the world to the next generation of internal combustion engines.

To understand what goes on during both the intake cycle and the power cycle when inlet air temperature is reduced, we need to consider both normally-aspirated and supercharged gasoline engines, as well as turbocharged diesels. We'll also limit this discussion to four-cycle engines.

Before we go any further, let's define a couple of terms. For this article, we'll say that supercharging is anything that increases the amount of oxygen available in the cylinder to support combustion of fuel above what could be expected from cylinder filling due to atmospheric pressure only. We'll assume atmospheric pressure at sea level to be 14.7 PSI and that "normal" air contains approximately 21 percent oxygen. We'll also exclude oxygen-bearing fuels, such as nitromethane, as a form of supercharging. This means that any form of mechanical compressor that pumps more air into an engine, such a belt- or gear-driven "supercharger", or an exhaust- or turbine-driven "turbocharger" is included, as well as the injection of nitrous oxide, or even oxygen itself.

Gale Banks has a favorite saying, "It's all about airflow." Airflow helps engines make power in many ways, as explained in other articles on this site, but it is also true that the more air you can flow through an engine, the more oxygen that will be available for burning fuel. More oxygen means more fuel can be burned, and that means more power. Maybe his saying should be refined for this article to be "It's all about oxygen content." This is most evident when dealing with an ordinary normally-aspirated gasoline engine. Many hot rodding tricks relate to getting more air(read oxygen) into the cylinder. Whether it's by installing a less restrictive fuel injection system or carburetor, a freer flowing intake manifold, porting the cylinder head(s), increasing camshaft lift or duration, the purpose is still the same - get more oxygen into the cylinder. Now in all fairness, the hot rodder is looking at getting maximum oxygen into the cylinder at wide open throttle for peak power (to beat the other guy). This is partly why nitrous oxide (an oxygen-rich gas) injection is so effective. Nitrous oxide effectively increases the percentage of oxygen in the working fluid (which becomes a mixture of air, nitrous oxide, and fuel) above the 21 percent oxygen in air alone. That means more fuel can be mixed into the working fluid too for greater combustion heat to expand the working fluid and increase pressure in the cylinder. Additionally, when the compressed nitrous oxide, which is stored in its pressurized container as a liquid, is injected, it depressurizes and changes state from a liquid to gas, cooling the working fluid for an accompanying density increase. Of course, it would take an incredible amount of nitrous oxide to be able to use it at all times, so as you would expect, nitrous oxide injection is only used on demand at wide open throttle. But what if we could get more oxygen into the engine at all throttle positions all the time? Then what happens?

In another article on this site, "Airflow - the Secret to Making Power", we explain that the air throttle on a gasoline engine controls the density of the intake charge that enters the cylinder. We also explain how superchargers and turbochargers increase the density under boost conditions. In some regards, we can look at density as the amount of oxygen crammed into a given volume of air (the working fluid). Increased density means the molecules in the air are closer together in the same space - more air mass (and oxygen) in the same space. Here's where things can get a little muddy. We have to consider increased air density in both unconfined and confined spaces. Let's look at an unconfined space, such as the atmosphere, because that's the world of the normally-aspirated engine. Two things affect air density in the atmosphere - pressure and temperature. As atmospheric pressure goes up, indicated by higher barometric pressure on a barometer, the density increases if the temperature stays the same. In other words, at any given temperature, if the barometric pressure rises, so does the air density. By the same token, as temperature goes down, the density increases if the atmospheric pressure stays the same. Atmospheric air density is very important to normally aspirated engines. Obviously, you can't do much to increase the atmospheric air pressure in regard to a normally-aspirated engine, but you can enhance it slightly with some form of ram air taken either from the front of the vehicle or from a dynamically high pressure area, such as the base of the windshield. More importantly, in most cases you can do something about the temperature of the inlet air. The object is to get the coolest air possible to the engine's intake system. Many engines induct air that has passed through the radiator or over other warm areas of the engine, significantly heating the air and reducing its density. By relocating the air intakes to duct outside air that hasn't been warmed into the engine, density is significantly increased. For example, it is not uncommon for air to increase up to 50º F. passing through the radiator and air conditioning condenser on a late model vehicle. The general rule of thumb is that for every 10º of temperature drop, the density (and oxygen content) increases 1 percent. It's actually more like 1.8 percent. Similarly, power increases by an equal amount. So, in this example, if you can intake air that hasn't been heated, you can gain as much as 5 to 9 percent more power. Happily, the best places to collect cool air are the same places that work for ram air, so you can get the density gains from both pressure and temperature using the same intake ducting.

To get back to our earlier question of what happens when we have cooler, or higher density, air at all throttle positions, it means that the engine is capable of producing given amounts of power at lesser throttle openings. This generally equates to better fuel economy. It also means the engine has greater power potential for accelerating or climbing grades. Cooler intake air also suppresses detonation since the working fluid doesn't reach as high a temperature on the compression stroke - again, a plus for accelerating or climbing grades.

Both gasoline and diesel engines that use superchargers and turbochargers face their own unique problems with intake air temperature. Superchargers and turbochargers significantly heat the intake air as they compress it to create boost. The higher boost pressure increases the air density, but the increased temperature of the air can largely offset this density gain. In this case, we're talking about the affects of pressure and temperature in a confined space, the intake system. Consequently, it is desirable to cool the compressed air before it enters the engine. In most cases, especially where boost levels exceed 7 PSI, cooling the compressed air with a charge air cooler, often called an intercooler, increases the air density more than any density losses that occur due to the accompanying pressure drop due to cooling or flow restrictions through an intercooler. In other words, intercooling results in a net density increase for the air entering the cylinder.

Intercooling also provides other benefits. For supercharged or turbocharged gasoline engines, reducing the intake air temperature suppresses detonation, just as it does for normally-aspirated gasoline engines. For diesel engines, intercooling not only increases charge density, it also results in lower exhaust gas temperature. Excessive exhaust gas temperature, above 1300º cannot be sustained in a diesel without eventual engine and/or turbocharger failure. Lowering intake temperature results in an almost equal reduction in exhaust temperature. For example, the air exiting the turbocharger on the Banks Sidewinder pickup was approximately 500º F. under full power. Dual air-to-water marine intercoolers, connected to a reservoir of ice water, were then used to reduce the air temperature to 100º F. before it entered the engine. With the intercooling, exhaust temperatures remained manageable for the duration of the Bonneville World Speed Record runs. Without intercooling, the exhaust temps would have been in the 1800º-1900º F. range.

The final conclusion is that regardless of whether an engine is normally aspirated or supercharged, gas or diesel, the cooler the intake air, the better. Usually.