I agree completely with the 180 being a better option for the 350 as I stated in my first post on this. That said if your buying heads to use on a future 383 the 180 won't fly. On a 400 HP build on that block I would say the reduction of 10 Ft Lbs (2.5%)and 5 HP is (1.25%) is a decent tradeoff for the ability to use the $1500 heads on the 383 engine you really want to end up with. I am also capable of debating pros and cons without insulting others. (Not directed at you) Every build involves multiple compromises and tradeoffs. Properly matched components is always best but sometimes you have to look at long term budget constraints. That said the AFR 195 will likely produce more Torque and HP than a set of 170-180 heads by another company so what are you really giving up? This is from AFR directly "The exceptional flow characteristics, ideal operating range of 2000 rpm to 6500 rpm, 23º valve angle, and standard valve spacing make this the perfect street head for 350 cid to 400 cid engines from 1955-86."

 

I never type things correctly

On his proposed build id bet the farm he gains 10 lbs tq over the 195 and gives up maybe 5hp. Seen it before..would he feel it maybe maybe not

 

If the cast components on this builds bottom end are a concern for HP output, couldn't the op get the AFR 195's and short cam the engine thereby limiting the HP produced?
Maybe something int the 262 advertised range?

 

He could also limit rpm, but I wouldn't control myself. This brings me back money ahead to start building the engine he'd like to have now. It took me 2 years to build my 400" so that my finances stayed with in budget.

 

Per phone conversation with AFR. The 180 head will be less sensitive to the can....meaning it will be easier to over or under cam the 195 head do to lower velocity. And the opposite for the 180 head. The 180 head in my application will be more forgiving and offer better throttle response in general and more mid range punch.

I have still to hear back from dart pro filer and brodix.

 

My edel performer 2101 will hurt or limit my top end? I am thinking it will.

 

That also brings power and torque in at a lower RPM with a lower redline. Both good things running a cast bottom end. I recommended the AFR's with a hydraulic roller cam in the duration @ .050 around 220 range for this very reason. Street builds never achieve the HP the heads are capable of.

Commenting that 195 heads should be reserved for engines approaching 600 HP ?
High end heads can pull power to 8000 RPM with the right combination of parts. That is not the OP's goal nor should it be.

 

with what they are saying but the difference will only be noticeable on the dyno not seat of the pants. They would love to sell you a set of 180's this year and a set of 195's in two years. If that is good with you I would go that route.

 

That intake will pull to the redline capability of the bottom end.

 

"Over camming" and "under camming" are another way to say ""I picked the wrong cam for the heads".


The heads determine the power output of engine - anything that attempts to reduce the power level as determined by the heads will impact drivability. The RPM range and the peaks can be adjusted with cam event timing - but the power comes from the heads.

 

That intake reduces flow by about 20%...but it fits under the stock hood with a dropped-base air cleaner. Just about nothing else fits - the Edelbrock Torker II as a low-rise single-plane would fit...but it's not a great intake due to a low rise.


But again - factory recommendation for redline on your engine is 5200 RPM.

 

Not what I said at all.

What I said was simple - those heads on this engine are a massive mismatch for the power targets and RPM range, that your guidance to significantly under-cam the engine will result in poor power and driveability, and finally that your recommended power rating and guidance to rev to 6K on this engine will ultimately make scrap. At this point it seems that the OP has made his choices - we'll see how it all sorts out.

 

Just to jump in here:

I like AFR heads and would own them if cost and my intended use, were not a factor.

I wanted a strictly street/weekend driver. Started with a stock '76 L-48 4 speed. While still a 350, I added a CC 268H cam, headers, and a Edelbrock Performer intake, and a set of TF 23* 64cc 195 cc heads. I went with the 195cc heads as I knew I was going to go to a 383 sometime in the future and the heads could be reused. Had this combo on a dyno and had 218 RWHP/with an out of tune (pre Lars) Qjet. Ran ok but I lusted for a stroker.

2 years +/- later I built my stroker. Used a 4-bolt block, CC XE274 flat tappet lifter cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake w/Lars rebuilt Q-Jet, Accel distributor with the plug wires on the correct side, etc. (see my signature/profile for all the details). Although never on a dyno yet, I am quite happy with the performance. CR is 10.3 and it runs BP 89 octane without a problem, because that is the octane I built it to run!

Since I was not building a race engine, I went with the TF heads, with a savings @ the time, of of significant $s. Flow numbers @0.500 were about within 2-3 cfm, if memory serves. Flow numbers at higher lift were not considered, due to my cam limits limits.

All things considered, for my use, I think I did ok. I didn't spend more money than I could afford, just to have the "latest and greatest" of everything.

I will, I promise, to get it on a dyno next spring. BTW, can anyone recommend a dyno shop in Western PA, near Pittsburgh? I want real numbers, not fantasy numbers to keep the customer happy. I can handle the truth.

 

At this point it seems that the OP has made his choices - we'll see how it all sorts out.[/QUOTE]

No I really haven't made my choices yet. I do believe the smaller heads will be better for what I want. "Strong midrange". I am not looking to get the maximum amount of power out of this engine, or to rev it beyond what it is capable of for extended time. Not looking to build a race car. The 260hp and 290hp gm engines share the same bottom end and heads. The cam being the difference. Correct me if I am wrong? Also the 290hp engine has a higher max rpm of 5500rpm since the longer duration cam? I also think the AFR heads will make more power than other that Iam cconsidering but do cost $500 or more. As for how much more power I don't know. To judge the increase in HP over my present combo I will use trap speed in the 1/4 when I get it done. It presently runs in the high 94mph range. My e.t are not good since the car will not hook if I dump the clutch at anything over idle. A at idle take off I get wheel hop about 15' out from the lights probably when the secondaries open?. And the reason I am installing a new composite 430lb spring and bilstine shocks. With my setup now I shift at 4800rpm where it feel like it stops pulling.

 

Being a street car that will be holeshot challenged is why I believe I want the power to be more in the midrange 2500 and up where I'll be able to use it

 

Heads determine the power capability of the engine, cam determines what RPM range that power is available. If you undercam it can lead to detonation or having to "detune" to run pump gas. If you overcam it will reduce performance due to reduced cylinder pressures and an operating range higher than optimal for the build. Cam choices need to be made taking compression, trans, gearing, heads, intake. exhaust and intended use into account. That said all street builds are below the peak potential of the heads and all builds are a combination of compromises. Your point is always BUDGET. My point was trying to save the OP two head purchases or, BUDGET. A roller cam in the 220 duration @ .050 range 110 LSA, maybe the next size smaller, will make power where the engine can use it and have the lift the heads need, something like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hr...make/chevrolet
or this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...make/chevrolet
Or this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hr...make/chevrolet
Depending on a few factors not given.
If your looking for street/strip power 2500 and up go with the 195 and the first cam with a .015 head gasket, Felpro 1094. With your 4 speed and 3.73 gears it will be what you want.
Look at combo 12 here. Very close to what I recommended above W/ Peak power 420 @ 5000 RPM, 435 Ft Lbs @ 3800 RPM
http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos2.html

 

That hasn't been my experience - but I don't spec heads beyond what's required to reach the power targets

Nope, my point is always fit for purpose and integrated design. Buying too big heads and a too small cam for an engine that won't support a particular power level or RPM has nothing to do with budget - if the guy had a solid shortblock and wanted to make 450+ HP I'd be pushing the 195's as hard as you are

I see a lot of these "camel" engines where a huge parts mismatch makes for an "eh" engine - regardless of how much money's being spent, if the engine isn't achieving it's potential, it's not a good deal.

 

Give Chad Speier a call.He will answer your questions for current and future builds.

 

http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos2.html

Combo 12

 

A 400hp 350 does not count as a near championship build in my book.

As for setting the advance curve yes I can and have done that.
Carb setup and adjustments only on 2 stroke snowmobile engines.
Internal engine work on a automobile engine. No I do not have any experience but I have been through a few 2 stroke engines.
I have not decided on what heads I will buy so where does the comment he going to buy the most expensive heads on the market come from?
Yes I am going to build a 383 in the future....but I am currently building a 350 that I would like to have approx. 400hp so where should my budget be? I never set a budget nor am I on a low budget. But there is no point in buying parts that are not intended for the power level I am trying to achieve. the reason for this build is to get my car to be quicker for next summer and to save some time this winter for other items I am doing to the car as well.

the cams I referenced are from each of the cam companies tech departments that I contacted with the same build specs. Not cam That I selected...but I believe that was is my post.

As for my mechanical ability and knowledge I am a journyman tool & die maker enuff said.

I come here looking for advise and knowledge from the guys that want to share what they know, their opnions, what works and what doesn't,ect.

I usually only post when I have something of value to add to the thread, if I don't know I listen and try to learn. So yes my post count is low since I am not a corvette expert and I don't know everything.

My Name is Harry and I apologize if I offended you in any of my posts that is and was not my intentions.

I will work on filling out my profile