briankeery

TX-Techman

The way I read this is that on first start the engine cranks immediately "barely turns over and cranks". After that if he touches the peddle it floods, then it cranks and cranks.... turns over and over but no crank.

I had this issue as well and was not too worried about correctness so I resolved these issues on my 69 with an Edelbrock Proflow EFI and Mallory SSI. Best mod I have ever done for the cars drive-ability. The car cranks easily, never stalls, and picked up about 3 MPG. I found the complete setup on CL with less than 1000 miles on it for a song.

AWilson

I appreciate that but this is not an ignition problem. There is always spark. There is nothing wrong with point systems and their reliability. It is carb problem as far as the stuck choke goes. And still a mystery problem why the car won't crank after shut down.

lars

Sounds good, Alan. I'll give it a test-run in the as-received condition to see if I can duplicate the issues you're having, and then I'll give it a teardown and good inspection to see if we can't find a problem. I'll post up some results here in this thread once I take a look at it.

Lars

AWilson

Thanks much!

Mike Ward

Did you mean float and not choke?


That's an electrical problem- battery, cables, connections, starter.

AWilson

That's an electrical problem- battery, cables, connections, starter.[/QUOTE]

I agree but I have been through everything and nothing solves it. I guess when I have it all back together I can start over.

Ironcross

one way or another the carb should be removed

And a simple test before sending the carb out is to blow your breath heavy......... into the fuel nut {gas line feed to carb} with the carb upside down ....If the air passes through, the condition is probably the floats or needle ....if you cant blow through, the float and needle are good.....dirt or rust in the tank may be causing the above too.....

Might be time to buy a more powerful battery too...

lars

I have the carb now, and it's on the test engine... more to come...

Lars

AWilson

Great! Sent you an e-mail this morning.

lars

Having received Alan’s carb, the first thing I did was mount it up on my Test Engine to see if I could duplicate the problem condition. My test engine is a 357 small block with an XE268H cam, Dart heads, and headers, so it’s a good, representative platform for a modest street performance engine.

The one complaint about the carb was that the choke did not fully close. I was unable to duplicate that condition, as the choke snapped closed immediately and consistently. On a divorced choke carb, the choke action is controlled fully by the divorced choke coil and the coil linkage, so I suspect a setup and adjustment problem with the choke that is not related to the carb.

Here is the carb set up on the test engine ready for initial start-up. Choke is fully closed and working correctly:


The engine fired right up and ran well, but fast idle speed was a bit low. The choke pulloff was also slightly rich, so both these items were corrected with a quick adjustment. Once the engine warmed up, air/fuel mixture was slightly rich at 13.7:1, which was caused by one of the mixture screws having been backed out too far. Once the mixture screws were set, the carb ran well and did not exhibit any specific problems, but it didn’t have the “right” sound to it, and it just didn’t “feel” quite right…

I then did a complete teardown on the carb to give it a good checkout:


Several issues were noted:

In an attempt to correct issues that may not have been caused by the carb, the carb had been disassembled at some point and “creatively tuned.” In this process, the following problems were induced:

1. The accelerator pump rod had been destroyed by grinding off the retaining feature at the lower end of the rod, and the rod had been drilled to accept a cotter pin. This cotter pin interfered with the rod travel.
2. The float needle clip and been installed backwards, partially jamming the operation and travel of the float.
3. The float level had been lowered excessively, inducing a lean condition.
4. The correct #43 primary metering rods had been replaced with a pair of grossly-lean #49 rods. This will induce significant drivability and tuning issues.
5. The APT (power piston height) had been raised significantly, to the point that the rods were almost completely retracted out of the jets, causing a rich condition to offset the lean conditions.
6. Fuel filter plugged.

To correct these issues, I installed a new float, replaced the needle/seat, correctly installed the clip, replaced the 49 rods with the correct 43 rods, lowered the APT setting to the correct height, replaced the fuel filter, replaced the damaged accelerator pump rod and gave the carb a good setup.

Back on the Test Engine, the carb fired up immediately and ran well with the choke setting that had been previously established. Here is Alan’s carb actually running on the Test Engine:


Once the engine fully warmed up, the choke opened as it should, and idle speed dropped down to a nice idle for the engine/cam setup. Throttle response was very good. Here is the engine warmed up and choke fully open:


Nice, stable idle with no issues at 840 rpm:


After balancing out the mixture screws on the hot engine, air/fuel ratio at the final test was perfect at 14.5:1


The engine was then shut down and allowed to hot-soak for a few minutes. Without touching the throttle, I then hit the starter, and it fired instantly with no startup issues. Idle speed and air/fuel ratio remained constant and stable. A second, extended hot shutdown revealed a few drops of fuel coming from the main discharge nozzles, so I removed the carb, pulled the airhorn off, and performed a fuel inlet pressure test on the bowl and needle/seat. This pressure test was performed at 7psi, and showed no leakage at all past the needle/seat. To mitigate the minor drip I had observed, I lowered the float level from my initial aggressive setup of .300 to a more street-friendly .375”.

Back on the test engine, the carb then ran perfectly, with all numbers right where they should be. The carb now has perfect, instant hot-start, and is running well throughout the rpm range.

Lars

'75

Nice and thorough as usual.

I wonder if the OP's choke problem was that he didn't realize the throttle needs to be opened slightly on a cold engine to let the choke snap shut?

AWilson

Well first of all I would like to thank Lars for checking it out. I am glad that it now is in excellent operating condition. But I find myself in a difficult situation because of the stellar reputation of Lars and me being nobody in the CF community. The following comment from Lars while tactful is just simply not true:
"In an attempt to correct issues that may not have been caused by the carb, the carb had been disassembled at some point and “creatively tuned.”
WOW!
With the exception of the shortblock and the powdercoater this car has not been worked on by anyone or left alone with anyone other than me, period. The carburetor has NEVER been disassembled since Lars had it, period. Lars rebuilt it a number of years ago and I did as he said, "Don't touch it". All I ever did was adjust the mixture screws in a last ditch effort to make things better before sending it to Lars. That is all. That probably shows my admittedly lack of carb expertise. I certainly would not even consider taking it apart or let anyone tinker with it. Why let anyone else touch it if Lars is available? It would complicate things.
So, I don't understand these findings. I can only think of a couple things.
1) When I sent the carb to Lars I also sent a second one. One Lars said was "junk", the second can be rebuilt. It was rebuilt and both sent back to me. Maybe I installed the junk carb? But then why is the junk carb repairable now? I wish I still had the other carb. I would send it to Lars. it begs the question, did I toss out into the trash a fresh Lars rebuilt Quadrajet carb!

Below is the info provided by Lars on the previously repaired carb. If this is the carb he has now then I am at a loss as to what is going on.



2) Did Lars mistakenly mark the junk carb as the one he rebuilt and vice versa and again i installed the wrong one?

Regardless, I will state again that since Lars had this carb the first time it has never been taken apart or tinkered with.
But hey, who the heck knows what the deal is or was. It sounds like Lars went through it well. I am still thankful and looking forward to next summer because I am putting new heads on (see war being waged in thread entitled "I just don't get it"), and a new intake. I am going to have faith in the Quadrajet and Lars capabilities and believe I will have a sweet car, finally after all these years.
I will end this post as I started it by thanking you Lars. Hope you’re not upset about this. Let me know what I owe you. Meanwhile I will read your post a dozen times and try to absorb as much as I can.
Alan

AWilson

Just thought i would show a picture to you guys how the butterfly is positioned on the car when it is cold. I need to figure out what I have done wrong with my hookup as the picture Lars shows is so different.

'75

Alan, that carb has a divorced choke and it will need adjusted or repaired separately. Can you post a pic of the passenger side of it? I'm sure Lars has directions so that you can adjust it after the engine is reassembled.

Cool Rocking Daddy

Choke linkage upside down? Not connected?

AWilson

Here are some pictures taken before I took the carb off to send to Lars.

lars

Alan -
I can't explain what you have going on there... I keep pretty good records and notes on every carb I build: The junk carb that was returned to you 7 years ago was a 1969 carb. The carb I rebuilt and set up was a '73 carb matching the carb number on the carb I have here now. This carb has several of my setup features in it, and the parts are the brands that I use, so it's likely that it's the same carb. But this carb has been altered since I last saw it: I installed #43 rods in the carb I built for you, and this carb that you just sent me had #49's in it. My personal notes show that I had planned to install #44s in it, but I was out of 44's, so I installed a pair of 43s in it and charged you for those. Your invoice spec sheet showed that there were #44 rods in the carb, since that was my planned jetting setup for you. The invoice that I have in my records has the correction made to show the 43 rods being installed, so I know with complete certainty that I never installed a pair of 49B rods... I simply don't use rods that lean in a '73 carb. I can also state with complete certainty that I do not install float needle clips backwards, I don't run float levels at .450", and I don't drill accelerator pump rods for cotter pins - these are typical signs of someone working on the carb who is not familiar with Q-Jets - I see these errors regularly. If this is the same carb I built for you, someone has had this carb apart over the past 7 years and made some changes. This could have been driven by an issue with the carb: the changes made are indicative of someone having rich-running problems, and are logical changes to make, even if they are not the correct changes to make.

It's above single-digit temperatures outside now, so I'll roll the run engine outside and do another series of verification tests on the carb just to make sure everything is good...

Lars

AWilson

I believe you. There is only a single possibility I thought of. I did give the car once to a mechanic locally to fix some snapped wheel studs and a parking brake issue. I did not tell him anything about the carb except to note for his convenience in moving the car around that he should know it is easy to flood and there is some kind of starter/electrical issue. I did not tell him to look at the carb. When I picked up the car he said"I see what you mean about the carb. You should buy a new modern one". I said "OK'. But dismissed it because I know these Q-Jets are as good or better than what is available now and it is at least era correct, and I have you to help figure out my issues. I find it hard to believe though that they would do all those things to it and not tell me. But who knows. In getting to answers I always am humble and honest and as detailed as possible otherwise I can't expect the best help and advice. I would easily admit my follies if I was aware of them. I don't want to waste our time and that can only be avoided with presenting all facts. No goofin around!
At this point I am just going to forget about it. Nothing in this journey to take a car that should have been parted out and junked back to a beautiful machine has been easy. But that is what makes you appreciate it also. So lets go on.

I will be going to Wisconsin this afternoon and will only have my cell phone for internet access. Be back Wednesday evening or sooner.

Mike Ward

None of Lar's findings indicates an easy to flood situation. If anything the non-functioning choke should have caused a hard to start lean condition. ???