Excessive Pushrod Wear!?
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 421
Likes: 6
From: Chicago IL
Pulled the driver side - not as bad as the other, but a few were "mushroomed" as well. The thing that sucks is I dont want replacements if they are gonna be crap like these. Might just be best to cut my loss and go with a different brand. Any suggestions?
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,332
Likes: 63
From: PARADISE
St. Jude Donor '09-'11-'12-'13-'14
I've used the higher end Comps, Howards, or Manley with no issues.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 330
Likes: 44
From: Cincinnati Ohio
Make sure you have hardened push rods not stock ones. I had similar issue and the stock push rods were not hardened. The ends of the push rods ended up galling the roller rockers and shortening the push rods. Made a mess of the engine, but was able to flush it all out after pulling all bearings and flushing oil galleries. Not you basic half hour job.
Unk
Unk
2026 Loser of the Year
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 36,573
Likes: 7,017
From: New Or-leens Loo-z-anna
Being a rookie....I have put 3,000 miles on the OEM valve train with loose rocker arms that "rattled" from being set "loose" after replacing valve stem seals....but the engine never missed!
And the ball-ends looked perfect with no burrs at the oil hole. Like the members said----maybe they were too soft to start with.
And the ball-ends looked perfect with no burrs at the oil hole. Like the members said----maybe they were too soft to start with.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 49
From: Bridgewater nj
I think those pushrods were not up to standards for your application. If I was you, I would buy the one piece pushrods with the rolled ends and fight with comp later. I would also pay special attention to the rocker arms. My worry would be the damaged pushrods may have made a strange wear pattern that could damage new pushrods or the rockers themselves could be compromised due to the wear.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 421
Likes: 6
From: Chicago IL
Make sure you have hardened push rods not stock ones. I had similar issue and the stock push rods were not hardened. The ends of the push rods ended up galling the roller rockers and shortening the push rods. Made a mess of the engine, but was able to flush it all out after pulling all bearings and flushing oil galleries. Not you basic half hour job.
Unk
Unk
@doorgunner - I think you and the others are right. Sounds like you got some good ones, though
I think those pushrods were not up to standards for your application. If I was you, I would buy the one piece pushrods with the rolled ends and fight with comp later. I would also pay special attention to the rocker arms. My worry would be the damaged pushrods may have made a strange wear pattern that could damage new pushrods or the rockers themselves could be compromised due to the wear.
Last edited by Jartanyon; Jun 7, 2014 at 11:44 AM.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,286
Likes: 487
From: Salmon Arm, BC
The ball socket in that pictured rocker doesn't look right to me. Could just be my interpretation of the picture, but how do the ***** on the pushrods fit into the socket? They should fit perfectly. Test the fit with a small dab of white grease on the ball end, and then fit the two together....should be a nice even smear of grease all around the socket if the fit is good.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 421
Likes: 6
From: Chicago IL
The ball socket in that pictured rocker doesn't look right to me. Could just be my interpretation of the picture, but how do the ***** on the pushrods fit into the socket? They should fit perfectly. Test the fit with a small dab of white grease on the ball end, and then fit the two together....should be a nice even smear of grease all around the socket if the fit is good.
On that note, however, I am looking at the following rockers to replace these either 1.5's or 1.6's (same price). I am not sure if I need the narrower rockers with the AFR heads or not. Anyone have suggestions on pushrods in the 7.75" to 7.8" range? Will the 1.6's change the geometry enough to drop down a little shorter?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g6910b
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g6920b
Last edited by Jartanyon; Jun 9, 2014 at 10:55 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
I got your PM and answered it. I was at the boat races on KY Lake this weekend.
Welded ball pushrods for anything over an OEM cam is dangerous. I would use a good 1 piece pushrod.
Roller tip rockers don't do much. The majority of the friction is in the fulcrum. I can only recommend a Crane rockers for a stud mount application.
With AFR heads your pushrod length will be longer than OEM length of 7.794.
Welded ball pushrods for anything over an OEM cam is dangerous. I would use a good 1 piece pushrod.
Roller tip rockers don't do much. The majority of the friction is in the fulcrum. I can only recommend a Crane rockers for a stud mount application.
With AFR heads your pushrod length will be longer than OEM length of 7.794.
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cc...make/chevrolet
I have used these on an economy build with no issues. AFR heads have +.100 valves. Stock pushrod length will not provide correct geometry. Combined with new rockers get the pushrod length checker, measure for correct length and confirm both exhaust and intake lengths on a couple cylinders before ordering. Your original problem could very well be from incorrect valvetrain geometry or adjustment issues.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-9001/overview/
I have used these on an economy build with no issues. AFR heads have +.100 valves. Stock pushrod length will not provide correct geometry. Combined with new rockers get the pushrod length checker, measure for correct length and confirm both exhaust and intake lengths on a couple cylinders before ordering. Your original problem could very well be from incorrect valvetrain geometry or adjustment issues.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-9001/overview/
Last edited by 63mako; Jun 9, 2014 at 10:43 AM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 421
Likes: 6
From: Chicago IL
Thanks guys - is there a specific brand I should be looking at of the 1 piece pushrods?
Wouldn't the effects of a shorter pushrod be the exact opposite in valve train wear? That would mean there isn't as much force pushing down on the valve, no?
Wouldn't the effects of a shorter pushrod be the exact opposite in valve train wear? That would mean there isn't as much force pushing down on the valve, no?
Race Director
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 122
From: Millington Illinois
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Incorrect geometry caused increased wear at whaytever point gets loaded incorrectly. Valve guides from sideloading, valve tips, pushrods or rocker cup. You still have the same spring pressure you are overcoming but instead of pushrod centered in cup and rocker tip centered on valve your offset slightly. Might not sound like a big deal but at 2400 RPM cruise the valve is opening and closing 20 times a second with seat pressure around #100 and open pressure of over #250. This is a lot of abuse if everything is not exactly right. Incorrect valvetrain geometry is probably the most overlooked and biggest cause of excessive wear and valvetrain failure in engines that have top end components upgraded. A lot of "kits" come with pushrods but those are if your using stock components elsewhere. You change heads, gasket thickness, rockers you deviate from stock length requirements.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 421
Likes: 6
From: Chicago IL
Im sorry, I just don't see how .100 difference would wear out the rod tips like that in only 500 miles. If that was the case, wouldn't all of them show the same kind of wear instead of only some? Not optimum performance, for sure, but that kind of damage? Not trying to argue, just trying to understand.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
Im sorry, I just don't see how .100 difference would wear out the rod tips like that in only 500 miles. If that was the case, wouldn't all of them show the same kind of wear instead of only some? Not optimum performance, for sure, but that kind of damage? Not trying to argue, just trying to understand.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 421
Likes: 6
From: Chicago IL
Valve tips and guides I can understand for sure, but pushrods? That is where I am having a hard time understanding. I will snap a few photos when I get home today. If the guides were worn, I would be burning oil, right?
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
This is the kit I bought:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-rp1412-16
Directions said to go 1/2 turn after 0 lash. Should I not? Is there a better kit I should get? I was looking at the 1.6 Scorpians...
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-rp1412-16
Directions said to go 1/2 turn after 0 lash. Should I not? Is there a better kit I should get? I was looking at the 1.6 Scorpians...
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,908
Likes: 129
From: Fredericksburg Virginia
Chris speaks the truth. Folks don't realize just how critical each and every component is to the engine assembly.
When I had my engine built, we installed the rotating assembly before ordering the heads and valves.
Then we measured the piston clearance before we ordered the head gasket.
Then we ordered the lifters and rockers after we mocked up the valve train and took some measurements.
Then we ordered the pushrods after we measured the SYSTEM of my rockers, my lifters, my heads, my head gasket, and my valves and the resulting relationship between my studs, my head casting, and the height of my TDC piston.
And all of this was done while also considering my cam profile, compression ratio, and spring rates.
I understand that you are where you are and would like the thing to run, but changing even one component to anything outside of stock in this entire engine system is a bigger deal than Summit/Jegs makes it out to be.
When I had my engine built, we installed the rotating assembly before ordering the heads and valves.
Then we measured the piston clearance before we ordered the head gasket.
Then we ordered the lifters and rockers after we mocked up the valve train and took some measurements.
Then we ordered the pushrods after we measured the SYSTEM of my rockers, my lifters, my heads, my head gasket, and my valves and the resulting relationship between my studs, my head casting, and the height of my TDC piston.
And all of this was done while also considering my cam profile, compression ratio, and spring rates.
I understand that you are where you are and would like the thing to run, but changing even one component to anything outside of stock in this entire engine system is a bigger deal than Summit/Jegs makes it out to be.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 93
From: Tri-Cities TN
If a customer orders a kit from us and has aftermarket heads we bill him for the pushrods and then ship them after he has measured them.
The short pushrod will side load the cup in the rocker and cause it to wear pre maturely.
The short pushrod will side load the cup in the rocker and cause it to wear pre maturely.