383 with Holley Terminator EFI - fouling #1
09-08-2015, 02:35 AM
#61
Instructor
Thread Starter
Sorry I did not see this sooner about your question regards manifold leaks.
An old reliable trick is to have engine running and take a can of carb cleaner spray.
Spray around each manifold runner at the head where the gasket is.
Listen for change in motor running and/or watch tach for change in rpm.
If you get a change, then that is where the gasket is leaking.
Good luck with your trouble shooting.
Bman
An old reliable trick is to have engine running and take a can of carb cleaner spray.
Spray around each manifold runner at the head where the gasket is.
Listen for change in motor running and/or watch tach for change in rpm.
If you get a change, then that is where the gasket is leaking.
Good luck with your trouble shooting.
Bman
09-08-2015, 02:39 AM
#62
Instructor
Thread Starter
Oil fouling?
How about some pics of the heads/valve side?
And pics of the valve stem seals.
Oil from above could be bad seal or bad valve guide.
I don't remember what you said about heads age, rebuilt, quality, etc.
Please post those details.
An inexpensive head rebuild could have used cheap out of round valve guides or someone knurled them which will seal for a short time only.
Like I said good luck.
More pics would help.
Bman
How about some pics of the heads/valve side?
And pics of the valve stem seals.
Oil from above could be bad seal or bad valve guide.
I don't remember what you said about heads age, rebuilt, quality, etc.
Please post those details.
An inexpensive head rebuild could have used cheap out of round valve guides or someone knurled them which will seal for a short time only.
Like I said good luck.
More pics would help.
Bman
pic in the morning.
09-08-2015, 10:33 AM
#63
Race Director
Keven.... just another thought.... I chased my tail for a long time... for something very simular as I have pointed out before....
Yes it could be your heads, they are known for problems,,, but it may not be as well...
I would suggest before you go taking off heads to just set the timing as dihard suggested, and run her for 500 miles... 100-200 on freeway at different speeds (RPM's) and the rest at different sustained speeds around town (not so much stop and go traffic though as the system needs steady run lengths and times to learn)
What do you have to loose? after a 100 mile run on the freeway, check your plugs directly.... see if it is a different story...
I would pull the heads last... what is the correction factor on your EFI when running at say, 2K RPM??
Yes it could be your heads, they are known for problems,,, but it may not be as well...
I would suggest before you go taking off heads to just set the timing as dihard suggested, and run her for 500 miles... 100-200 on freeway at different speeds (RPM's) and the rest at different sustained speeds around town (not so much stop and go traffic though as the system needs steady run lengths and times to learn)
What do you have to loose? after a 100 mile run on the freeway, check your plugs directly.... see if it is a different story...
I would pull the heads last... what is the correction factor on your EFI when running at say, 2K RPM??
09-08-2015, 11:40 AM
#65
Race Director
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St. Jude Donor '12-'13, '15- '16-'17-'18-'19, '21
Last thought on the heads.
Did you check block and heads for straightness?
If nothing shows up, put the heads back on but swap sides.
If fouling is now #8 cyl then you know its that head.
Like I said, good luck......
Did you check block and heads for straightness?
If nothing shows up, put the heads back on but swap sides.
If fouling is now #8 cyl then you know its that head.
Like I said, good luck......
09-08-2015, 02:51 PM
#66
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2002
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Wow K BC, i have to commend u for quite an effort. Good u ruled out the internals now and u can focus on the top end.
Well now that we can look at all the plugs we can see we may have focused too much on #1 as #3, #7 look dark also. Where before #3 was a nice tan. And #5 is shiny white lean here (like #3 was before).
The passenger side bank has an awful dark plug on #8 and #2 looks black on the ground case also. #4 still looks white lean on the insulator and #6 is a normal plug (the only normal looking plug).
In summary it looks like #4 and #5 are too lean while all the end cyls are black and rich.
Plugs tell me that the manifold/injectors dont have good distribution. It maybe like Paul said let the EFI learn but to me if it does fix it the cyls will still have a large miss-match in distribution. I would ditch that intake for a single plane with smooth runners (no sharp turns) and more heat (no air gap) like the Torquer II or the Xcelerator. And why not swap sides w/heads - though i think #8 looks black as is too.
Again nice effort K BC.
Well now that we can look at all the plugs we can see we may have focused too much on #1 as #3, #7 look dark also. Where before #3 was a nice tan. And #5 is shiny white lean here (like #3 was before).
The passenger side bank has an awful dark plug on #8 and #2 looks black on the ground case also. #4 still looks white lean on the insulator and #6 is a normal plug (the only normal looking plug).
In summary it looks like #4 and #5 are too lean while all the end cyls are black and rich.
Plugs tell me that the manifold/injectors dont have good distribution. It maybe like Paul said let the EFI learn but to me if it does fix it the cyls will still have a large miss-match in distribution. I would ditch that intake for a single plane with smooth runners (no sharp turns) and more heat (no air gap) like the Torquer II or the Xcelerator. And why not swap sides w/heads - though i think #8 looks black as is too.
Again nice effort K BC.
09-09-2015, 10:12 PM
#67
Burning Brakes
Jumping in late. What kind of O2 sensor? I am running a single wide band with my Holley Avenger. Mine is in the exhaust manifold 9" from head.
Last edited by donnie1956; 09-09-2015 at 10:16 PM.
09-09-2015, 10:23 PM
#68
Race Director
Also look where it is mounted... He has shorties and it's about 1-2" past the collected after a 3 bolt standard header flange seal... If ANY O2 gets past that it throws the whole thing out to lunch .... And those flanges are not the best sealing
09-10-2015, 12:40 AM
#69
Instructor
Thread Starter
No leak at this point but I will watch this and consider a change over the winter.
Will update this weekend after some driving time.
09-10-2015, 07:22 AM
#70
Race Director
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Did you ever fill the intake ports to see if they leak into an area where there is oil?
I have always put my O2 sensors in the collector extensions and they work fine there. I wanted to avoid welding on a ceramic coated header.
I have always put my O2 sensors in the collector extensions and they work fine there. I wanted to avoid welding on a ceramic coated header.
09-10-2015, 09:29 AM
#71
Race Director
Long as heads are off, pull piston in question and check rings...
09-10-2015, 10:23 AM
#72
Race Director
I still think most likely you need to put a good 500 miles on it and check your timing as diehard had suggested....
09-23-2015, 09:02 AM
#73
Hello Kevin BC. Wow you certainly are having your fare share of issues. I was following your thread and decided to offer some suggestions. First, Nick and I are also using the Terminator. See this thread: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...periences.html
I initially set up my TBI so it does not do progressive primary and secondary blade movement when I move the throttle. I explained that in the other post.
Your numbers on the dyno look great. I kind of find it hard to believe that the system learned everything it needed to just on the dyno. Then I guess you changed nothing and installed the engine and now have this fouling issue. What changed between the dyno and install? If the plug(s) are oil fouling there is only so many ways that oil can get into a combustion chamber. If they are fuel fouling then that is an issue of either ignition or fuel control. Some things to consider; I absolutely agree from the others that you should just drive the car and let the system learn. I don't think it learned to the extent it needed by just being on a dyno revving to see Hp and torque.
So why not go back to basic engine 101. Make sure everything is where it is supposed to be and then just drive the car. Perhaps put some fresh plugs in it and start with the wizard in the hand held or what ever you are using. I suggest this because you have made so many changes that now it is just guessing. You need to go back to a base point.
Also, what kind of distributor are you using? I see you said a small cap GM HEI. Holley strongly suggests that you use a genuine GM module in the distributor. Others have created issues. You also need to verify that your sync of the crank and distributor is correct per the manual. If not the numbers you are looking at for cruise and so on are not really what the engine is getting.
Next I would pull the 02 sensor and inspect it. All this ugly stuff on the plugs means it is most likely getting collected on the 02. Your o2 sensor may be malfunctioning and not providing the correct input to the ECM. Look at the hand held or laptop and just read what is going on afterwards. It will tell you quite a lot.
Can't rule out a bad valve stem seal and so on but your stuff is affecting all the plugs so that tells me the issue is global. A CD box like MSD will not cure the problem. CD boxes compliment ignition systems not cure other problems.
My system is a 355 with Dart heads, 180 runners with 64 CC chambers. I use a Edlebrock air gap along with a 1 in spacer under the TBI. I have side mount Hooker super comp headers. My 02 is mounted about 6 or 7 inches after all the pipes come together. I use the small cap HEI to control timing and everything is run through a MSD 6AL box. The sync degree is 15 degrees on my motor. This number comes from the hand held on the Monitor screen, not what you put in the system for cruise, WOT and so on. Keep those numbers conservative until the thing has learned.
My motor is running great. I guess what I am saying is your airgap should be just fine. The quality of the heads may not be the greatest but if they are working then look for another cause of the problem.
Might I recommend that once you make sure everything is as it is supposed to be and you have entered a fuel table from the wizard, resist the urge to go make software changes until the system has had an opportunity to learn. After about a hundred miles or so under various conditions then look at the learned table and see how well it is populated. At that time you can slow the learning down. Continue to drive it for another hundred miles or so then you can transfer the learn table to the base table. Look at the table in graph form, smooth out any dips or rises and then load it to the ECM. Save everything first of course. I use the software from Holley on my laptop to do this.
If there is still an issue with fouling now you can attack it with more vigor. Only make one change at a time, if that does not cure the issue change it back and look for something else. What spark plug is recommended? As an example, Dart recommends a specific plug for their heads.
An often taken for granted little item is the PCV valve. Not having the correct one on your engine or not having it hooked up correctly will cause oil to be pulled into the combustion chambers via the intake manifold. You won't really see the oil because it resides in the runners mostly. Not enough PCV and the oil will look for a place to get out, i.e. oil leak. To much PCV and the engine will literally suck oil into the chambers. Combine this with fuel that is incorrect and you can see the problems. Remember everything is calculated from whatever you have your target A/F set to. Always make suttle changes to see how the engine behaves. I have read many a post where folks are having problems with EFI's and immediately go play with the software. Bad Idea. It is usually something to do with the way something was done or set up. Read and re-read the manual several times to get a better understanding of how things work and what various changes do to the system. Most of the time the user really does not need to mess with much except to fine tune for their particular engine.
I have built engines and performed diagnosis for quit a few years and seen lots of weird stuff. You may have a combination of stuff going on both mechanical and electronic. I always go back to the basics first. With the information you have provided at this point I think going back to like an initial point would be wise. Again sorry to hear about this issue and hope you get it resolved. Just my two cents worth. Please keep us posted with your issue and hopefully your cure.
I initially set up my TBI so it does not do progressive primary and secondary blade movement when I move the throttle. I explained that in the other post.
Your numbers on the dyno look great. I kind of find it hard to believe that the system learned everything it needed to just on the dyno. Then I guess you changed nothing and installed the engine and now have this fouling issue. What changed between the dyno and install? If the plug(s) are oil fouling there is only so many ways that oil can get into a combustion chamber. If they are fuel fouling then that is an issue of either ignition or fuel control. Some things to consider; I absolutely agree from the others that you should just drive the car and let the system learn. I don't think it learned to the extent it needed by just being on a dyno revving to see Hp and torque.
So why not go back to basic engine 101. Make sure everything is where it is supposed to be and then just drive the car. Perhaps put some fresh plugs in it and start with the wizard in the hand held or what ever you are using. I suggest this because you have made so many changes that now it is just guessing. You need to go back to a base point.
Also, what kind of distributor are you using? I see you said a small cap GM HEI. Holley strongly suggests that you use a genuine GM module in the distributor. Others have created issues. You also need to verify that your sync of the crank and distributor is correct per the manual. If not the numbers you are looking at for cruise and so on are not really what the engine is getting.
Next I would pull the 02 sensor and inspect it. All this ugly stuff on the plugs means it is most likely getting collected on the 02. Your o2 sensor may be malfunctioning and not providing the correct input to the ECM. Look at the hand held or laptop and just read what is going on afterwards. It will tell you quite a lot.
Can't rule out a bad valve stem seal and so on but your stuff is affecting all the plugs so that tells me the issue is global. A CD box like MSD will not cure the problem. CD boxes compliment ignition systems not cure other problems.
My system is a 355 with Dart heads, 180 runners with 64 CC chambers. I use a Edlebrock air gap along with a 1 in spacer under the TBI. I have side mount Hooker super comp headers. My 02 is mounted about 6 or 7 inches after all the pipes come together. I use the small cap HEI to control timing and everything is run through a MSD 6AL box. The sync degree is 15 degrees on my motor. This number comes from the hand held on the Monitor screen, not what you put in the system for cruise, WOT and so on. Keep those numbers conservative until the thing has learned.
My motor is running great. I guess what I am saying is your airgap should be just fine. The quality of the heads may not be the greatest but if they are working then look for another cause of the problem.
Might I recommend that once you make sure everything is as it is supposed to be and you have entered a fuel table from the wizard, resist the urge to go make software changes until the system has had an opportunity to learn. After about a hundred miles or so under various conditions then look at the learned table and see how well it is populated. At that time you can slow the learning down. Continue to drive it for another hundred miles or so then you can transfer the learn table to the base table. Look at the table in graph form, smooth out any dips or rises and then load it to the ECM. Save everything first of course. I use the software from Holley on my laptop to do this.
If there is still an issue with fouling now you can attack it with more vigor. Only make one change at a time, if that does not cure the issue change it back and look for something else. What spark plug is recommended? As an example, Dart recommends a specific plug for their heads.
An often taken for granted little item is the PCV valve. Not having the correct one on your engine or not having it hooked up correctly will cause oil to be pulled into the combustion chambers via the intake manifold. You won't really see the oil because it resides in the runners mostly. Not enough PCV and the oil will look for a place to get out, i.e. oil leak. To much PCV and the engine will literally suck oil into the chambers. Combine this with fuel that is incorrect and you can see the problems. Remember everything is calculated from whatever you have your target A/F set to. Always make suttle changes to see how the engine behaves. I have read many a post where folks are having problems with EFI's and immediately go play with the software. Bad Idea. It is usually something to do with the way something was done or set up. Read and re-read the manual several times to get a better understanding of how things work and what various changes do to the system. Most of the time the user really does not need to mess with much except to fine tune for their particular engine.
I have built engines and performed diagnosis for quit a few years and seen lots of weird stuff. You may have a combination of stuff going on both mechanical and electronic. I always go back to the basics first. With the information you have provided at this point I think going back to like an initial point would be wise. Again sorry to hear about this issue and hope you get it resolved. Just my two cents worth. Please keep us posted with your issue and hopefully your cure.
09-23-2015, 03:58 PM
#75
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks Condor, I have been following the thread you and Nick have been updating. Lots of good info.
You have a lot of comments, some of which I have definitely addressed, so I won't reply to each of them. Current status is that I have replaced the RPM Air Gap with a single plan Torker II; now trying to get some miles on it to let it learn and adjust. Already seems a lot better but need a few hundred more miles to see how it performs after satisfactory learn.
I have been working with a high performance mechanic who is an experienced Terminator installer. He did not build the engine but did the dyno runs and has helped tune. I say this only so you know that the basics from the manual for sync etc have been looked at.
I hope to have a positive report in a week providing we get some good weather on days I can get out and drive.
Kevin
You have a lot of comments, some of which I have definitely addressed, so I won't reply to each of them. Current status is that I have replaced the RPM Air Gap with a single plan Torker II; now trying to get some miles on it to let it learn and adjust. Already seems a lot better but need a few hundred more miles to see how it performs after satisfactory learn.
I have been working with a high performance mechanic who is an experienced Terminator installer. He did not build the engine but did the dyno runs and has helped tune. I say this only so you know that the basics from the manual for sync etc have been looked at.
I hope to have a positive report in a week providing we get some good weather on days I can get out and drive.
Kevin
09-23-2015, 03:59 PM
#76
Instructor
Thread Starter
09-23-2015, 04:19 PM
#77
Race Director
you can still pull, check and change the suspect plug on occasion without messing with the ecm's schooling. but i feel it is 1 plug, it is 1 bad injector or a problem with that cylinder letting oil in. did you swap injectors between that hole and another?