Your thoughts please...

Was talking to my engine builder when i picked up my 5.4 triton engine after rebuild....

He claims the synthetic oils are "to good" and do not let the rings seat properly, and thus the engine will burn oil...

He says to run Dyno oil for the first 3000 miles even though the engine is a full roller engine... as the rings will not spin, and will not set with the synthetic...

now we all (most of us) know that with a flat tappet cam you MUST run a high zinc content or you will burn a lobe or 2... not fun... been there done that...




So.. this question is just for the rings...



thoughts and opinions

 

I have put together a few engines and this is the advise I have always followed from a knowledgeable engine builder. Note: All of my builds have been factory roller or retro-fit roller.

I use "Quickseat" during engine assembly to help the rings seat better/quicker. This is applied directly to the cylinder walls using a tiny amount of WD-40 on the walls and then work a very small amount of the powder into the walls.



It leaves a green hue on the walls.



Before the first start I fill with break in oil, which is a high zinc formula to protect the cam/valvtrain on initial startup, but contains no friction modifiers so the rings can seat properly.

This is what I use:
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...-EA?zo=1934716

After it has been running a little to come up to temp and verify no leaks, I take the car for a cruise. Using a lower gear I do several pulls from 2500-4500 rpm (using about 3/4 throttle, not full) and let the engine slow the car back down. After the pulls I drive it home and change to a full synthetic with a new filter and treat it as normal. I have never had issues with smoking or oil consumption.

 

Well on the Chevelle forum they disagree from the threads I've read.

 

This new 5.4 is burning a quart at every gas fill... and the engine builder believes it is because i ran synthetic from the start... And the rings did not seat... I have not had time to do any trouble shooting as i am building a new home right now and time is very limited//

 

Switch out to a standard oil and run the crap out of it......
Rings seat much faster under a load due to the pressure of the gasses pushing the ring against the cylinder wall.....

Most engine builders will dyno an engine about four to seven pulls for that very reason.....so the rings are sealed.....this is supported by the increase of power on each successive pull.....

Hard 1/4 mile passes will help you......or run it hard on the E-way....
Stick cars have it easier as you can load them easier in a higher gear...

I have never used the Total seal stuff above....but know guys that do....
When the shop I worked for built Pro Stock Truck engines in 98'....they would take a freshly honed Rocket block and let it sit overnight in the shop in a specific humidity.....the resulting super thin coat of rust was what they used to help break the rings in quicker..sounds crazy...but it worked! This is what the Total Seal product is doing.

Jebby

 

I have always just made a couple hard passes, changed the oil and called it good.

 

It depends on the ring face surface. Moly faced rings will break in almost immediately. Iron rings take longer as do Chrome faced rings.
The rings you may be most concerned with though is the oil rings. Their job is to hold back the oil. The second ring also scrapes oil off the wall, to a lesser extent.
The ring most talked about is the compression ring. This is the one that the cylinder surface is honed to and the one that is usually faced with some material other than the base iron. Although the second ring may be faced as well.
This ring will break in very quickly if moly faced.
However the second ring may be, and the oil ring is of different materials.

These rings play a big part in oil control. In our world of rebuilds and aftermarket rings we cannot duplicate the cylinder prep of an OEM engine. That to me means that we cannot use OEM break in procedures and expect the same outcome.

I have not tried to break an engine in with synthetic. OEM does it all the time but as I said have different controls in place.

Like most here I have always used regular oil, not any break in oil, just dino oil that does not have friction modifiers in it. So no energy conservation label on the bottle.

After any kind of cam break in I take the car out once it's up to full operating temp.
Then run it hard for 20 miles or so. Full throttle accel and let it decel in gear. Do this over and over.
Lots of ring pressure to insure it is mating to the cylinder wall. RPM to at least 4500.
After that change the oil. Run another 500 miles change the oil, run 1500 or so miles then over to synthetic.

I had a buddy that took his bike and followed the OEM break in procedure after a top end with piston and rings. OEM break in was a stepped process of gradually increasing use of power over about 2 to 3 hours, with cool downs.

His bike never made it's rated power after that.

He later decided to tear it down and do it again. On tear down the piston was stained almost black from the blowby of the rings.

He re-did the top and broke it in per my instruction. Then it not only made previous power levels but made a bit more power than stock.

I broke a little Suzuki car in via the method I just described. The car previous to this had never gotten better than 40 MPG. After my re-ring and break in, no other changes at all, it got 44 MPG. Good ring seal.

 

I have built many engines that were to be run on propane which is a very dry fuel. To be able to seat chrome plated rings I mixed a slurry of Bon Ami and light oil then swabbed it onto the cylinder walls. Then I would spin the engine over several hundred times and the Bon Ami would "dull" the cylinder walls and seat the rings. And its not necessary to remove the Bon Ami as the combustion process blows the residue out within seconds of start-up. So if you ever end up with an oil burner after an engine overhaul remember the Bon Ami and oil trick.

For an engine that has the intake manifold and heads installed the Bon Ami and oil mixture can be fed into the cylinders by inserting a small hose down each runner and then gravity will put it into the cylinders or it can be fed in thru the spark plug holes. Do NOT use Comet cleanser as it contains chlorine.

 

If you have heavy cast iron manifolds, just sprinkle 5-6 lbs of play sand down the carb while revving it up to 4500 RPM. It'll also clean out your mufflers!

 

Ok.... An addition to the question....

Again, back to the engine builder... He stated that some cas that first run synthetic oil will NEVER break in... Truth? Thoughts?

So.. I did run synthetic from the get go... Can the rings be seated still??

Also, as noted above REELAV8R said that driving on the freeway was a good break in but ideling it is not ........the truck moves down the freeway at 70 miles an hour at around 1500 RPM that's not much off ideal ....

 

Maybe. LOL that helps huh?

My though on that is that a moly faced compression ring with appropriate surface hone will break in regardless of the oil used.

The other two rings maybe not.

Once the surface roughness that is applied to the cylinder is rounded off then there is no longer anything to mate the ring to the cylinder.

The surface roughness is little peaks and valleys. Once the rings have rounded off the peaks then there is insufficient surface roughness to wear the ring to the cylinder.

So if the rings are not broken in properly initially there is not much of a chance of them mating to the cylinder surface at a later time due to lack of remaining surface roughness.

It may be possible if the oil is what is preventing the wear in of the rings and changing to a dino oil may be the solution as Jebby mentioned.

I would go with a straight 30 wt run it hard then change it and do it again. Take compression readings before and after. You'll know if you did any good as there may a rise in PSI. You'll also know over time if oil consumption is reduced.

 

And he would be correct.. Synthetic Oil manufacturers will tell you that too.. Drain it, put Dino oil in it and go climb a big hill in high gear, then engine break down the other side a few times.. They will seat eventually

 

What do have to lose now? Run it hard in low gears for an afternoon w/dino oil in it.

Sorry read of your troubles but posting here helps the rest of us. Thank you.

 

100% EXACTLY what I ve been saying on another thread here, but the resident "experts" think Synthetic should be in it on start up and you re good to go after 20 minutes.. Rings will not seat without the friction on break-in.. It takes time ....or you can just add a quart of $8 Oil with every tank of gas if you don t believe it

 

This is good advice, but before you do this, all oils are not created equal.
I have a Ford motor home with a triton V-10 that has always used a little bit of oil since new. I was running Castrol syntec, then I tried Mobil-1. Same result.
Running from where I live, to so.Cal. is about a 3,000 mile round trip and I am pulling a 10,000 pound trailer. It would burn about 1.5 to 2 quarts on this trip every time. I started running the Schaeffer's 5-30 synthetic 9000, and I over filled it by about a pint before I started expecting it to use some oil. When I got back home I pulled the stick, and was very surprised that it was still a little over filled!
What oil are you running BTW?

 

Oil is not the issue,

Have the engine builder explain what in the synthetic oil will prevent the rings from seating,

synthetics have a more uniform molecular structure along with fewer additives, the ability to handle temp swings to the extreme better than dino's and less volatility.

what about this will cause rings not to seat?

the only true way to find the problem is to take it apart and inspect it.

a leak down will tell you to some extent what condition the compression ring is in but will not tell you anything about the oil control ring

Neal

 

Started with mobile 1 5-20, drained it and now have in dino oil pennzoil 5-20

 

I am fairly versed in troubleshooting, as most here are aware... And I will start the process in a few weeks when i have a few hours... What i am trying to understand here right now is the truth/value in the engine builders statements...

how he explains it is that it is to good... it does not let the rings ware correctly and prevents them from the spin in there groove.

Like flat tappet lifters spin in there hole

 

I would bump the weight up to 5-30 or 10-30. Don't run any heavier as it will be counter productive.

 

You're in California? No reason to run such a thin oil. Try a 10W-30. Actually considering the mild temps you could easily run a 15W-40 HDEO.